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Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise

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Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#311

Post by munksbeer »

dehrmann wrote: post #107
wetpaws wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothingburger like pretty much everything that antivaxers talk about

Dismissing people like this is part of what fuels the antivax movement. Vaccines are generally effective, but they're not perfect and have side effects, and failing to acknowledge that when someone is asking in in good faith polarizes people and makes it look like someone's trying to hide something.

The problem with this argument is that there are an infinite amount of "crackpot" views that then need to be "acknowledged" and engaged with.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#312

Post by BoingBoomTschak »

foltik wrote: post #175
tlogan wrote: post #130

If these mRNA vaccines had not been pushed or mandated, more people would probably think they are safe: there will be no need for any of these reviews. But because they were pushed by the government, many people do not trust them. Sure, they were pushed and mandated for good reasons, but the problem is that a lot of people have already lost trust in the government. That trust was not lost because of one big decision.…

I think it’s the opposite. The _distrust itself_ was pushed by those looking to stir up outrage, generate engagement, and turn it into votes. Case in point: look at all the people who’ve now built their entire political identities atop this unfalsifiable distrust. They’d even distrust “stand further apart” if the wrong person said it. > I do not know how this trust can be rebuilt but definitely not by publishing more…

Riiight, distrust was "pushed" and is irrational. I guess having a working memory doesn't count? The Tuskegee syphilis study, or the contaminated blood scandals in Europe and Japan, etc... couldn't have anything to do with distrust towards the government's relation with public health, that's for kooks who aren't on the right side of history!

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#313

Post by qsera »

RandomLensman wrote: post #277
qsera wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am talking about a case when there IS some adverse effect, after it happened. In that case, there is generally an effort from the practitioners that the vaccine could not have caused it, particularly when the said thing is not mentioned in the package insert or in the list of adverse effects from the manufacture.

How would you suggest to establish causality?

First step would be to collect data that is trust worthy regarding potential adverse reactions. And for that the barriers that stigmatize such reporting should be removed.

Basically, for starters, doctors should be free to report the events they see without getting labeled "Anti-vaccine doctor" or fear of getting their licence revoked.

When such barriers exist, no one could/should trust the product.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#314

Post by logifail »

teamonkey wrote: post #301
logifail wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the kids that would have died from vaccines are still in danger Except that we knew by May 2020 (possibly even earlier) that the data showed that the young and otherwise healthy were at extraordinarily low risk from Covid. I still recall a conversation with child#2 after one of his school friends was at home quarantining after testing positive for Covid. I asked my son if he knew if his friend was feeling better...…

Kids spread the virus, whether they’re at risk of dying or not. Vaccines reduce the chance of them spreading it by reducing the symptoms and the time that they they’re infectious. The main benefit of vaccines is that they reduce the transmission of disease. This aspect saves more lives than individual protection.

> Vaccines reduce the chance of them spreading it [..]

"Citation needed"...

Covid vaccination did not reliably or durably block SARS-CoV-2 transmission, especially after Omicron and as immunity waned.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39971395/

  The overall VE [Vaccine Effectiveness] of the complete primary series against infection with any SARS-CoV-2 variant was 70.7%. VE was lower for Omicron, at 26.1%, than for pre-Omicron strains, at 77.0%. Over time, VE against infection by any variant decreased from 68.9% to 38.9% after 6 months.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#315

Post by cedws »

koonsolo wrote: post #275
cedws wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, this comment is not arguing against vaccines or their veracity, there seems to have been confusion about that. I am specifically arguing against vaccine mandates.

In Belgium, the polio vaccine is mandatory, and rightly so. I'm willing to bet that in the next 20 years, some kid in the western world will suffer the consequences of polio, because of the anti-vax lunatics.

The polio vaccine is much older and as far as I could find has never had a death attributed to it. COVID vaccines are newer, and their safety profile was not fully understood when they were rolled out.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#316

Post by defrost »

logifail wrote: post #314
teamonkey wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids spread the virus, whether they’re at risk of dying or not. Vaccines reduce the chance of them spreading it by reducing the symptoms and the time that they they’re infectious. The main benefit of vaccines is that they reduce the transmission of disease. This aspect saves more lives than individual protection.

> Vaccines reduce the chance of them spreading it [..] "Citation needed"... Covid vaccination did not reliably or durably block SARS-CoV-2 transmission, especially after Omicron and as immunity waned. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39971395/ The overall VE [Vaccine Effectiveness] of the complete primary series against infection with any SARS-CoV-2 variant was 70.7%. VE was lower for Omicron, at 26.1%, than for pre-O…

Leaving aside the linked study is looking at vaccine effectiveness WRT infection rather than transmission, ...

Low effectiveness still agrees with the point made above about reducing chances of spread and transmission.

A reduction is still a reduction, even if is not a 100% total and full stop.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#317

Post by watwut »

Markoff wrote: post #292
KiwiJohnno wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I think you are correct in reducing the argument to its basic factors. Yep, its fucked up. However if we’re going to talk about moral responsibility for vaccine mandates, we also have to consider moral responsibility for non-vaccination leading to spread of a dangerous virus during a pandemic. If you are going to hold one group responsible for vaccine-related deaths of mandated vaccines, you must also hold the g…

> However if we’re going to talk about moral responsibility for vaccine mandates, we also have to consider moral responsibility for non-vaccination leading to spread of a dangerous virus during a pandemic. that's all nice and dandy except COVID "vaccines" (remember, they had to change vaccine definition for this very reason) did NOT STOP the spread, they were at best protecting some old people, it was completely poin…

I remeber that time too. In fact, vaccines slowed spread and also made symptoms easier on those who caught it anyway.

And that is exactly what was promissed to me.

You are just full of it, that is it.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#318

Post by RandomLensman »

qsera wrote: post #313
RandomLensman wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you suggest to establish causality?

First step would be to collect data that is trust worthy regarding potential adverse reactions. And for that the barriers that stigmatize such reporting should be removed. Basically, for starters, doctors should be free to report the events they see without getting labeled "Anti-vaccine doctor" or fear of getting their licence revoked. When such barriers exist, no one could/should trust the product.

What don't you like about current reporting such as VAERS? Where do you see the barriers there specifically? Do you have examples of doctors getting their licenses revoked for reporting something?

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#319

Post by watwut »

qsera wrote: post #167
bsder wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If these mRNA vaccines had not been pushed or mandated, more people would probably think they are safe: there will be no need for any of these reviews. Hogwash. Wakefield predated anything Covid. And measles vaccines aren't mRNA and people would rather let their children die. Had Trump and Co called the vaccine part of the second coming, people would be lining up at their churches to get them. You can't reason some…

> people would rather let their children die. I see that your are yourself in a position you didn't reason you into.

There wad that kid that died of measles in America and later there was interview with parents. They said basically that. They would change nothing and rather have kid die then get vaccines.

At some point, you have to start believing what people say about themselves and their believes.

And second, yes that is attitude of political actors who spread fear of vaccines to get votes. Overall impact is exactly that and they know.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#320

Post by InsideOutSanta »

defrost wrote: post #310
InsideOutSanta wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your government refuses to let you leave the country? This argument also applies to you: by your logic, vaccine mandates are perfectly fine because you can leave the country. > That aside, they also command you to own both a car and a gun? The problem isn't me owning a car and gun, the problem is obviously everybody else. I'm rather unlikely to drive into myself while driving my own car.

First up, for clarity, I have no issues with COVID vaccines and how they were used in Australia - the very few cases of myocarditis were mild and resulted in no deaths. Second up, I'm confused by your use of "mandate" and how your government mandates you to remain in that country. > by your logic, vaccine mandates are perfectly fine because you can leave the country. Not by my logic, nor that of Dana Scott, Christoph…

> how your government mandates you to remain in that country

I never said that. I said that government inaction is also a mandate; look at the context for my comment.

If you're arguing that leaving the country makes government action (or inaction) acceptable, then by your own logic, all government action (or inaction) is acceptable, which supports my point: vaccine mandates are fine, because by your own logic, if you disagree with them, you can leave the country.

> You can drive into a wall or off a cliff, and yes, injured by own car (or tractor) is an actual not infrequent injury.

You're missing the point I'm making, which is that not driving a car does not mean I won't get run over by other people, which is the actual point I brought up.

To be honest, I'm not quite sure why you're responding to me, since you don't seem to be arguing against anything I actually said?

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