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Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

reuters.com

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Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#41

Post by datsci_est_2015 »

Zigurd wrote: post #29
everdrive wrote: post #22

Large groups of people just don't know how to solve these sorts of problems. A government will never say "facebook should either not exist or should radically modify its product so that it is no longer successful" At best, they will push for identity verification or age verification. These are not the only two possible courses, but these will be the choices put in front of us. Get used to reading books and going on w…

The government regulates plenty of complex products and markets. Software isn't that special.

The trick is to cut away at the user-hostile foundations of the product. In theory, a product like Facebook or Instagram would have no need to be regulated, but the sale of user data, the engineered addictiveness (looking at you “Data Scientists”), etc. are all worthy of being regulated.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#42

Post by alex1138 »

Addiction has a lot of definitions one can split hairs over but I note the following

The feeds are and have been for years highly random (at least one anecdote of two people who were 'married' - relationship status - on FB yet none saw the others' posts)

If you don't go on FB they really don't like it and they spam you to death

Can Zuck meaningfully claim they're not in the business of addiction, whatever else? No. His life philosophy is "dumb fucks"

Edit: Oh, and People You May know. Now everyone can friend you and you have 2000 friends... none of whose posts you'll ever see. And the psychological baggage. Is the cute girl I like looking at my profile and that's why they're on there, or is it shamelessly pulled from geolocation data?

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#43

Post by datsci_est_2015 »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #20
okuntilnow wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But when governments do regulate (UK, AUS etc all) - people cry foul.

People cry foul about every other thing too. It's best to ignore them.

Unfortunately we can’t ignore them when they’re our “representatives” in the government.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#44

Post by everdrive »

Towaway69 wrote: post #34
everdrive wrote: post #22

Large groups of people just don't know how to solve these sorts of problems. A government will never say "facebook should either not exist or should radically modify its product so that it is no longer successful" At best, they will push for identity verification or age verification. These are not the only two possible courses, but these will be the choices put in front of us. Get used to reading books and going on w…

Third option: Facebook changes it's business model from data gathering and selling to pay-to-use. Make Insta and FB both be gate communities where folks have to pay to post. Fourth option: product becomes less addictive and the algorithms stop optimising on "angry users click more". Less advertising profits, perhaps less engagement but probably still profits on advertising. Fifth option: don't aim to continually incr…

That was my point. Intelligent people on HN can find other options, but none of those other options will either impress Meta shareholders nor will they make it into legislation.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#45

Post by everdrive »

thinkingtoilet wrote: post #36
everdrive wrote: post #22

Large groups of people just don't know how to solve these sorts of problems. A government will never say "facebook should either not exist or should radically modify its product so that it is no longer successful" At best, they will push for identity verification or age verification. These are not the only two possible courses, but these will be the choices put in front of us. Get used to reading books and going on w…

>Get used to reading books and going on walks. As someone who does both, it's quite lovely! You might even be happier doing that than whatever it is the modern internet has become.

Agreed. I'm working on the transition. I'm still a work in progress.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#46

Post by plagiarist »

zach_miller wrote: post #5
whynotmaybe wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a place where self-regulation ever works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Dues I think this is a fun historical example. Ships passing through Denmark needed to pay a tax of 1-2% of the value of their cargo. They self-assessed that value. The twist that makes it interesting was that the King could choose to purchase any cargo immediately at the reported value. If a ship underreported, they might save on tax, but they risked taking a hefty loss. I have no…

I love solutions like that. Like if you are splitting food, one person cuts and the other chooses.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#47

Post by consumer451 »

okuntilnow wrote: post #16
josefritzishere wrote: post #2

This is an area where we really could use case law to protect kids from the Zuckerberg's of the world. It's important for the future. We're not going to "self-regulate" our way out of this.

But when governments do regulate (UK, AUS etc all) - people cry foul.

The entire age verification push in AUS was started by an advertising consulting company to distract from proposed online gambling regulation.

Protecting children is a noble goal that I personally agree with, but it's also often used to sane-wash further erosion of privacy.

As has been discussed here and elsewhere, age verification turns out to be the complete loss of Internet anonymity due to its implementation techniques. There are proposed alternative implementations, very conveniently for some, this is not part of the discussion.

This is exactly the time when nerds like us should speak up.

https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/technology/safety-secu...

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#48

Post by snickerbockers »

cyanydeez wrote: post #9
snickerbockers wrote: post #6

This actualy came up in yesterday's congressional MKULTRA hearing. Somebody at the hearing pointed out the absurdity of the CIA claiming that MKULTRA was a dead end when we have 20 years of social media scandals and lawsuits showing that social media corporations are intentionally creating products that can manipulate large groups of people on an individual level. Clearly the hypotheses the CIA was testing were not a…

MKULTRA was about using _drugs_ to alter state. It has literally zero other than pop culture memes and conspiracy theory in relation to what facebook is doing. The facts are basically: Facebook's own researchers and independent researchers presented real harms caused by Facebook's algorithms, and they fired them, ignored them and took the datasets away and continued doing as they want. You don't need to go to any con…

Nice fedslop but teddy k was never given any drugs.

Im glad you agree with me on the stuff about Facebook being evil. im not sure i understand why you said this was not a conspiracy immediately after describing a series of events perpetrated by facebook which could easily form the basis of a criminal conspiracy prosecution.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#49

Post by forlorn_mammoth »

hparadiz wrote: post #21
wry_discontent wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems totally reasonable. It is designed to be addictive, and they definitely target folks under 18. The article specifically mentions teens.

You still haven't convinced me that is inherently bad that is warrants some sort of monetary damages. All entertainment is addictive. That's the whole point. This is just people seeing dollar signs asking for handouts. Nothing of an real value to society. Why is it okay for FB to be sued but not say Pokemon? I think Pokemon is way more dangerous, addictive, and is basically gambling with the card packs. Have some per…

Wait, you seriously believe the point of all entertainment is addiction?

As in, the only form of entertainment that society should (or does) offer should be specifically designed to trigger as much addictive behavior as possible?

I can see why a person, looking at our current world, might think that. Hello Dopamine Fracking.

But is that the world we want? It certainly is not the world that existed before modern extractive capitalism started turning to extracting from the people it is supposed to serve.

Fortunately, capitalism is more efficient that state/centralized planning, so capitalism is doing a better job of turning us into their farm animals than lords ever could do for their serfs.

Re: Meta loses bid to dismiss US states' claims that FB, Instagram addict children

#50

Post by alex1138 »

kmeisthax wrote: post #39
hparadiz wrote: post #15

Seriously losing confidence in the American judicial system with rulings like this. Facebook is already blocking children below age 13 and now with social media bans in place in many states the cut off is now 16. So frankly rulings like this just seem like the government seeing dollar signs and asking for hand outs. And all because people apparently can't accept any personal responsibility. Disclaimer: I do not have…

"Personal responsibility" stops working when all your friends and family have a Facebook[0] account and you want to contact them. Facebook builds their platforms like roach motels - easy to get in, hard to get out of - and uses your friends to hold you hostage on the platform. My personal preference would be laws to restrict ad surveillance and laws to mandate third-party interoperability to break that calculus. But…

Literally hard to get out of beyond network effects, too. Talk about GDPR all you like but I know of at least one person whose account got reactivated after deleting it and then promptly showed up on People You May Know

This is fraud. Promising something you didn't deliver is fraud

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