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Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

danielcordova.me

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Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#161

Post by gf000 »

Izkata wrote: post #153
gf000 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't suck, people are just emotional beings and have some "football team" level takes on technical stuff as well. The very same people that hate systemd for "being a monolith" and limiting choice are usually also love X and hate Wayland where they can manage to explain how being a monolith is suddenly good. Especially that systemd is pretty modular - at least the actual systemd program running as PID 1. It also…

> The very same people that hate systemd for "being a monolith" and limiting choice are usually also love X and hate Wayland where they can manage to explain how being a monolith is suddenly good. Wayland is very much a monolith compared to X. I guess people never really realized how much desktop environments could be mix'n'matched under X, bringing window managers, system trays, hotkeys bindings, and a whole bunch o…

???

Wayland is a protocol, that sentence is in and of itself faulty.

And there are multiple independent implementations of said protocol. Unlike in case of X, that has basically 1. With proprietary modules (that's how nvidia proprietary drivers work). With a goddamn printer inside. Don't mistake an X "window manager" which is basically just an extension on top of an X server with a whole display manager implementation of Wayland.

Like an X window manager is more akin to a Gnome shell plugin that adds a dash to your screen.

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#162

Post by unsungNovelty »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #150
unsungNovelty wrote: post #69

Alpine Linux and Void are the only mainstream enough distro I can think of as an interest for my planB. But I wonder how good Alpine is for desktop computing and development stuff. I know they have recently started shipping full DEs for desktop IIRC. Anyone with any experiences?

> Alpine Linux and Void are the only mainstream enough distro I can think of as an interest for my planB. Consider Gentoo as well? They have decent binary package availability now which reduces the compilation needed. > But I wonder how good Alpine is for desktop computing and development stuff. I know they have recently started shipping full DEs for desktop IIRC. How do you mean? You can install whatever graphical s…

>How do you mean?

Alpine was more for container environment right? So I was wondering how it has been for normal usage and apps. Especially with MUSL etc

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#163

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

unsungNovelty wrote: post #162
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alpine Linux and Void are the only mainstream enough distro I can think of as an interest for my planB. Consider Gentoo as well? They have decent binary package availability now which reduces the compilation needed. > But I wonder how good Alpine is for desktop computing and development stuff. I know they have recently started shipping full DEs for desktop IIRC. How do you mean? You can install whatever graphical s…

>How do you mean? Alpine was more for container environment right? So I was wondering how it has been for normal usage and apps. Especially with MUSL etc

IIRC Alpine was originally built largely for embedded networking gear, then because of its small size came to be favored in container images (where smaller images are a selling point), but it's a general purpose distro and I've had a good time daily-driving it on laptops. If apps/musl are a problem you can just install flatpak, but off the top of my head I've only needed that for Steam and non-firefox browsers (but `apk add firefox` works fine).

Actually, a funny thing is that I used to daily-drive Void, and I do remember having more problems there because of musl. But I think that may have been mostly a chromium or webkit problem with... something about how Void+musl did memory allocations? I forget. Anyways, I'm pretty sure even that would be fixed with firefox or flatpak so w/e.

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#164

Post by Izkata »

gf000 wrote: post #161
Izkata wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The very same people that hate systemd for "being a monolith" and limiting choice are usually also love X and hate Wayland where they can manage to explain how being a monolith is suddenly good. Wayland is very much a monolith compared to X. I guess people never really realized how much desktop environments could be mix'n'matched under X, bringing window managers, system trays, hotkeys bindings, and a whole bunch o…

??? Wayland is a protocol, that sentence is in and of itself faulty. And there are multiple independent implementations of said protocol. Unlike in case of X, that has basically 1. With proprietary modules (that's how nvidia proprietary drivers work). With a goddamn printer inside. Don't mistake an X "window manager" which is basically just an extension on top of an X server with a whole display manager implementatio…

> Like an X window manager is more akin to a Gnome shell plugin that adds a dash to your screen.

Yes, that's exactly my point - on the user's side, X was modular, not monolithic. Wayland is the monolithic one where everything is "batteries included" (except not always everything) with no ability to add/replace functionality.

Please continue reading the remainder of the sentence from my first comment:

> and you have to accept whatever your chosen desktop environment chose to implement.

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#165

Post by ChocolateGod »

mort96 wrote: post #146
ChocolateGod wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> comply with age verification laws Do you want the developers to ignore the law and in the case of companies like Red Hat etc be vulnerable to law suits?

I don't think there's anything SystemD has to do in order to comply with age verification laws. They could just ignore it. They're not an operating system.

If any distro made their own way to store a DoB field, it'd be a nightmare of interoperability.

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#166

Post by unsungNovelty »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #163
unsungNovelty wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How do you mean? Alpine was more for container environment right? So I was wondering how it has been for normal usage and apps. Especially with MUSL etc

IIRC Alpine was originally built largely for embedded networking gear, then because of its small size came to be favored in container images (where smaller images are a selling point), but it's a general purpose distro and I've had a good time daily-driving it on laptops. If apps/musl are a problem you can just install flatpak, but off the top of my head I've only needed that for Steam and non-firefox browsers (but `…

Thank you! I'll definitely try it out this or next week.

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#167

Post by [deleted] »

iamnothere wrote: post #144
halJordan wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't foist this on an ethereal other that we can just blame for all our ills. Pretending American democracy is somehow broken to the point voting doesn't work is an insane take. Especially because you literally watched republican grassroots vote in their man and he's giving them what he campaigned on to give them. Pretending there's nothing to done is just an excuse to do nothing

I was just as unhappy with Biden, with Obama (by the end of his term), and with Bush. So no, voting doesn’t work. Regardless of the face you put on the presidency, we are always going to have to fight for privacy and freedom at the grassroots level. Fortunately, economic decline has brought with it a decline in state capacity, which does bring new problems, but enforcement is becoming an issue across the board. That’…

[deleted]

Re: Replacing Systemd with OpenRC in Debian

#168

Post by simoncion »

jeroenhd wrote: post #159
simoncion wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, you'll need to add a line to your fstab manually if you want something autodiscovery cannot do... It's just shocking that autodiscovery is so extremely limited. I'm aware that if you want to do something that autodiscovery can't do, then you cant use autodiscovery for that thing... I'm pretty sure that was covered in a recent Tautology Club meeting. > I don't recall ever installing a system with / and /home on…

> I'd wager that that's the configuration of vast majority of the consumer systems out there... I'm not so sure. Most people I know, including developers, only have one SSD, maybe a hard drive for photos or whatever that's not mounted inside /home. The most popular mainstream Linux distributions (Android, ChromeOS, SteamOS) all default to a single disk setup, as do most virtual machines (which must exceed the number…

> I'm not so sure. Most people I know, including developers, only have one SSD...

Right. My intent was to say that a single disk, probably with everything under "/" in a single partition is what the overwhelming majority of personal computers out there are using.

> Multi-disk detection would be nice, but I can already imagine the absolute mess that would happen if you were to try to boot on a multi-distro PC...

This would be trivial if the thing supported LVM. [0] Given that the bootloader needs to use a protocol to tell the automagic fstab creator what is the root device, [1] update that protocol to have the bootloader pass the VG name to search for, and then search for LVs named "$VG_NAME-$MOUNTPOINT" and do the obvious thing. [2] No need to either fuck around with or remember magic GUIDs or worry about what happens when you have multiple partitions with the same magic GUID, and you support all sorts of power-user features for free.

[0] While it's true that I haven't used a ton of Linux installers, every Linux installer I've used for the past ten, fifteen years that offered to let you partition your disk also had an option to set up LVM. I know that many people think that LVM's an "advanced" feature, but it has been around for ages and is well-supported.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48727809>

[2] That is, if the bootloader passes in 'gentoovg', you'd do the obvious things with 'gentoovg-root', 'gentoovg-home', 'gentoovg-opt', etc, etc, etc.

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