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Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

wangcong.org

371–380 of 599 posts

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#371

This is a bizarrely anti-democratic. "Winning" isn't the important part of discussing a topic with multiple points of view.

democracy demands that a drooling idiot gets to have equal say as any genius with his vote. since there are far more drooling idiots than geniuses we can easily see why democracy has typically been so dystopian, and only seems to get worse over time.

maybe you should educate us as to why democracy like this belongs in professional settings where efficiency and correctness determine outcome and profit/ job security.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#372

Semi-related piece of advice for younger folks: When you join a new team, don't try to change team tools, processes etc. starting in the very first week. Most things are the way they are for a reason. Your "obviously better" idea may lack the full context. Start with observing the situation, talking to people to build understanding and historical context, and don't jump to conclusions too early. Sometimes you'll be r…

Chesterton's Fence. I recommend people read more into this and other concepts in mental models, such as logical fallacies.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#373
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Despite ending on a note of self-improvement, I wasn't really convinced that the author has any self-awareness to speak of. For example: > When you argue with someone, you think you’re debating an idea. Often you’re not. You’re challenging their sense of self. Oh, they're going to acknowledge that there are emotional reasons for their addiction to arguing. > So I’ve drawn a line. I only discuss pros and cons…

Debating is always primarily a game of power and only secondarily about truth or correctness. If it were about truth alone, the person who is right could be content with being right and not caring what others believe, just like they don’t care about 99.9999% of beliefs held by others either. But it’s not about truth, it’s about imposing your beliefs on others. And while rational arguments are a socially blessed metho…

> If it were about truth alone, the person who is right could be content with being right...

So... how would someone know if they're right? For starters, if we're going to be serious there are a lot of matters where there isn't even such a thing as "right" because the question is how to decide what to optimise for. But more importantly, if you rely on the inside of your own head to try and arrive at the truth the most likely outcome is slop. One of the best parts of being argumentative is finding out what the holes in a view are really quickly.

There seem to be views in the comments and original article that arguments are to be won rather than undertaken and reviewed. They're a man-vs-self story, not man-vs-man one.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point being made is to pick your battles. The author’s point is that, even if you are correct 100% of the time, fighting every battle is toxic to yourself and everyone around you. They are saying to look past the fact that you might be right and consider that it’s not worth the effort anyway. Now, I will attempt to put down my phone and not respond to any replies I get to the contrary. Sweating intensifies…

> even if you are correct 100% of the time Probably a sign of something larger if you think this, which OP apparently does. If he knew so much, he wouldn't be an engineer complaining about how everyone's stupider than him

There's (probably) a correlation between things you know well and things you're willing to argue about.

Care about thing -> learn more about it

Care about thing -> argue about it

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#375
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. this is a pithy think to say but its really not true, and every person that has lost their religion and been convinced by rational argument is a counter example.

People aren't convinced by rational arguments. Someone who does not believe in god will not be convinced to believe by a proof of god's existence, and someone with faith will not become an atheist because someone debunks the proof. The rational arguments form a structure that beliefs can hang on, but the core process of changing ones mind is not rational. Like many people, I have changed my thinking on many topics ov…

> Someone who does not believe in god will not be convinced to believe by a proof of god's existence

I'm sure some atheists could be convinced. The rule "all atheists will reject evidence of God" seems false. The rule "all atheists will accept evidence of God" also seems false. Life is more complicated than that. It depends on the atheist and on the evidence.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#376
post #101

孟子曰:「人之患在好爲人師。」 Mencius said: "The trouble with people is that they are too fond of being teachers to others." 仁者如射,射者正己而後發。發而不中,不怨勝己者,反求諸己而已矣。 The benevolent person is like an archer. The archer corrects their own posture before releasing the arrow. If they shoot and miss, they do not blame the one who surpasses them, but simply turn around and seek the cause within themselves. 孟子曰:「愛人不親,反其仁;治人不治,反其智;禮人不答,反其敬。行有不得者,…

`Mencius said: "The trouble with people is that they are too fond of being teachers to others."` I never thought about this but I really believe it to be true and would love to know why is that. For example, whenever I want to get an interaction going with very small kids, I would pretend to not know something and they'd be super happy to teach me - works every time.

I can see how one’s tendency to preach being associated with their ego

I would also make a distinction between kids’ ‘teaching’ behaviors you describe and the one in Mencius’s quote

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What actual content? It's AI slop.

[flagged]

Most people can easily tell the difference between useless bot crap (like the article), and genuine human comments (like the one you're replying to).

Too bad you and most HN commenters nowadays can't...

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#378
post #25

One of the most cancerous developments of our generation is a bunch of people isolating themselves from everyone else, and having their perfect unchallenged audience captured views spread far and wide. On a more personal level, the reason people are frustrated about arguing is because they can’t fully articulate their reasons. They don’t realize it themselves. The older you get and the more practiced you get at argui…

The frustrating part about arguing - on the internet: 1. Infinite supply of people. 2. 90%+ of times before you get anywhere, you find out the person doesn't have "what it takes". At minimum you have to filter out 90%+ of people that simply don't have the mental faculties to evaluate what is and isn't a valid argument, before you even get started. All this just takes energy and there's just no benifit. Its like imagi…

Many people just don't care about honoring the integrity of the game, if they can gain advantage in the meta game. Of course motivation for the game dissolves under such conditions.

Tying a tangible score number to 'vague social approval' hits very hard. There's a sense in which people care about that by default, but have to make themselves care about the inner game. But appearing to have integrity about the inner game is a good move in the meta game, so of course the default move of those who don't care about the game but want to appear to for the sake of the meta game is to put up a front: the trick is that it's not real. If playing the inner game faithfully, it becomes trivial to disassemble their (fronted) position. But it's not really a game, because they're not playing but pretending to play. You're costing them meta-score! How dare you!

Anyway, I digress. This dynamic falls out of the incentive structure of sites like HN/reddit/etc which embed discussion/argumentation into quasi-anonymous social-approval-point-ranked contexts. Moderation can temper the most egregiously obvious of such behavior, but only that.

A reasonable strategy if you're interested in actually playing the inner game is to carefully check if there's any meta game focused cheesing going on before bothering to enter against someone. Do they make mistakes in rule adherence due to inexperience, or do they make mistakes in rule adherence that conspicuously always puts them in a meta game advantage? Do they adhere to rules even when it's _disadvantageous_? That kind of thing.

To return to the chess analogy... Don't play with people who blatantly return their own downed pieces to the board (or similar hijinks). They're just there to look like they're the kind of person who wins at chess, not to play chess.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#379
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point being made is to pick your battles. The author’s point is that, even if you are correct 100% of the time, fighting every battle is toxic to yourself and everyone around you. They are saying to look past the fact that you might be right and consider that it’s not worth the effort anyway. Now, I will attempt to put down my phone and not respond to any replies I get to the contrary. Sweating intensifies…

Yeah, I agree somewhat. But I also got the feeling when reading this article that this guy loves motte-and-bailey. People don't intentionally set out to do motte-and-bailey arguments, but they often do it by accident. When people realize that they're arguing the losing side but can't admit it, they subtly shift their argument, and shift, and shift again until they're out of the bailey and inside the unassailable mott…

[deleted]

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#380

Reeks of AI prose past the first paragraph or two. I don't need to know a bot's opinion on how to convince others.

It turns out AI writes like that because humans write like this. It seemed like AI to me too but when I read all of it, it definitely does not seem like AI anymore, just the style of self help blog post seem a couple decades ago.
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