Live data from Hacker News

Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

wangcong.org

81–90 of 599 posts

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#81
post #60

Here's a simple idea: You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. And three interpretations to consider: 0: The default: That person is irrationally attached to being wrong. Best to walk away, argumentation will be futile, and I have a life to lead. 1: Whoa! Sometimes that person is me. 2: If they didn't reason themselves into it, how did they get into it? What if their position rep…

> You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

this is a pithy think to say but its really not true, and every person that has lost their religion and been convinced by rational argument is a counter example.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#83
This feels like a very immature understanding of argument. The entire framing is wrong, even if it's both understandable and a very widely held viewpoint.

I credit my mom for teaching me very early on that the POINT of argument is to come to a decision or understanding, not to determine right or wrong or assign any credit or blame. She was insatiable in running down every technicality. I learned to ask her, "okay, so how does that help with what we're doing?", which she usually had no answer to. That might sound antagonistic, but it was really just a personality thing. She would say, just as matter-of-factly, that it didn't help, it just was true. She has no malice, and no intention of "being right". She just couldn't help but be pedantic. Something about the way her mind works. Luckily, she's working as a quality control supervisor for a warehouse, where the details are essential. Nice when things can work out like that.

The point crystallized for me when I met one of the best developers I've ever known. He would calmly and firmly insist on his absolute correctness until you were blue in the face. But the second you gave him even a hint that he could be wrong, he would run down your point to its conclusions and then adjust his stance without ever changing disposition. You were wrong without question until you gave him any reason to believe you weren't. At that point, he validated his argument against your new information and changed his position without any equivocation or excuses. Just "oh, okay, you mean this? Now I see what you mean. Yes, you're right, that will work.". Sometimes he would laugh at himself for not getting it, and he would always be upfront about being wrong if you insisted he acknowledge it. But he didn't offer up any humility because now we had an answer and could move forward. No reason to dwell on the wrong stuff. It's still my favorite working relationship. I get so tired of the effusive repiping of the whole argument to assign right and wrong that is so common in corporate spaces. Feels like such a waste of time, once you've experienced true absence of ego. I still think of him as a kind of compiler. Provide exactly the right info and get what you want. Provide the wrong info and there will be no way to move forward until that is reconciled. As a dev, it's a breath of fresh air from humans who are often so far from strict logic.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#84
That leads to political disaster. Changing just myself has an almost unnoticeable effect on the collective life, while political organization, action and propaganda work much better, and those rely on arguments and persuasion.

Of course, the author seems to have a pretty individualistic mind, comparing the political nature of humans to startups and markets, and that will lead to disaster in my opinion. We cannot survive in the long-term like that.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#85
post #46

They never mention they could’ve been wrong. The author assumes they’re always right, but that trying to convince others and argue them to their right side is not valuable. How about: maybe I’m wrong and I didn’t let their ideas influence me. How about: even when I think I’m right, it will be better to calmly kindly discuss, listening as much as talking, not debating or arguing or speaking over them, but attempting t…

Also most things worth arguing over fall somewhere in the middle, and won’t have an absolute right answer. It sounds like the author has learned something important though.

I'm 52, and over my lifetime I felt that there is actually an ever-increasing number of things that used to have an absolute right (scientifically proven) answer that become controversial. Climate change. Vaccines. Whether the earth is round - that kind of stuff. And, while I agree with the author's approach to let people learn from the consequences of their mistakes, what if the consequences of their mistakes (or the mistakes of the people they elect) affect all of us?

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#86
post #42

My human-written summary: Most people are ego-driven and won't listen to your logical arguments. They will only get angry with you even if you're right. So don't argue with them. Give advice only if they ask. If you really know something others don't realize, maybe that's a valuable edge for you to profit from. Use it. And don't hesitate to ask others for advice when it might help you.

"With those who will not listen, it is useless to have a conversation."

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#87
The author put it very well (with a little ai writing help :-)

I have come to the same conclusion; I saw my own journey in the author’s story.

At work, one of the statements I make to mentees, if asked, and to colleagues, if they lament people not listening to their advice, is this:

You’re only an expert if you’re invited to be one.

This is a way of saying that unsolicited advice is always unwelcome no matter how correct it is.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#88
Most of your arguments are not profitable . If another team wants you to implement something unreliable , you will be responsible for service . You will need to have an argument to prevent that from happening .

The 4 hour work week isn’t life

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#89
What's that old saying?

> "Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."

Due to my odd approach to life, I'm not competitive. Haven't been, for most of my life. It hasn't been a problem.

I always find it fascinating, that folks can't just be good at something; They have to be better than someone else.

I know that it happens, because I see it all the time, but I can't actually understand it.

Post reply on HN