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Asahi Linux 7.1 Progress Report

asahilinux.org

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Re: Asahi Linux 7.1 Progress Report

#111

Post by Grombobulous »

mmcnl wrote: post #65
spockz wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I checked a 16” framework last week comparing to the 24/48GiB MBP. The ssd is significantly faster, the RAM is almost twice as fast, the CPU has more cores. The only benefit is having a dedicated gpu. At more or less the same price. Admittedly, the screen ratio is better with the framework. But prefer the matte screen of the MacBook.

The battery life stinks, the build quality is subpar and the fan runs all the time. If you don't care about anything that makes the MacBook Pro a premium device, then sure you can be overpriced consumer-grade slop that has a slight edge in specs (except CPU). But it's a miserable trade-off.

I would recommend something like a Zephyrus G16 to someone who is interested in a 16” laptop with powerful graphics and a MacBook Pro-like footprint.

It’s easy to diss Apple alternatives and call them unrefined and all that, but to the right person, there are downsides to a Mac.

For example, the current MacBook Pro models with higher end chips prioritize quietness over heat and get very hot to the touch under heavy workloads.

Unless you are in music production, a little fan noise never hurt anyone, and the idea that windows laptops sound like hair dryers when doing basic tasks like browsing the web is very outdated.

Apple is revered for refinement and quality yet they get some basic ergonomics wrong like the sharp edges near your wrist and the notch blocking the menu bar.

Re: Asahi Linux 7.1 Progress Report

#112

Post by cosmic_cheese »

Grombobulous wrote: post #102
jorvi wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Battery life? 20 hours of video playback. Yeah, they pretty much lied about that. It is only in a special Windows ultra-power saving mode that heavily throttles background tasks, forces the screen to be 30% lower brightness, heavily downclocks the CPU (50%+ less performance!), etc; The MacBook has to do no such tricks. You're not gonna see Frameworks that equal the perf-per-watt of Apple until they release a model…

It is well-documented that Panther Lake is highly power efficient. I wouldn’t personally argue against that. The days of assuming that Apple has the best chip efficiency are coming to an end, especially if the Windows/Qualcomm platform is a workable choice for your needs (maybe someday Linux support will get better). Apple still has a lead but it’s small enough that it’s not a good reason to choose an Apple system on…

As far as I can tell, Framework’s claimed battery numbers require Windows to achieve, which is more than enough reason for many to not consider the FW 13 Pro as an option. If it can’t run Linux without sacrifice compared to Windows there’s no point.

Standby time is likely also a major issue, unless Intel suddenly reversed course and decided to support proper sleep again.

Re: Asahi Linux 7.1 Progress Report

#113

Post by GTP »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #103
GTP wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is fair if you compare Apple with other manufacturers, but it is still unfair in absolute terms. The hardware still works, and the work they're doing to support other models would let macOS work on that laptop as well, as proven by tools that let you do the upgrade unofficially.

Eh, with prebuilt PCs it’s muddy because the bulk of heavy lifting is done by Microsoft, not the manufacturer. It’s not unusual at all to pull up the firmware/drivers/etc page for a random laptop and find that updates stopped rolling out about 2 years after its introduction to the market, despite Reddit and similar being filled with reports of firmware bugs for that particular model.

Fair point, but I think the lack of those updates impacts the average consumer much less than lack of OS updates.

Re: Asahi Linux 7.1 Progress Report

#114

Post by Grombobulous »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #112
Grombobulous wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is well-documented that Panther Lake is highly power efficient. I wouldn’t personally argue against that. The days of assuming that Apple has the best chip efficiency are coming to an end, especially if the Windows/Qualcomm platform is a workable choice for your needs (maybe someday Linux support will get better). Apple still has a lead but it’s small enough that it’s not a good reason to choose an Apple system on…

As far as I can tell, Framework’s claimed battery numbers require Windows to achieve, which is more than enough reason for many to not consider the FW 13 Pro as an option. If it can’t run Linux without sacrifice compared to Windows there’s no point. Standby time is likely also a major issue, unless Intel suddenly reversed course and decided to support proper sleep again.

It’s still going to be a respectable performer in Linux. The whole point of the 20 hour stunt was to show that it’s a major improvement and not a small one. Maybe it would have been better to show a default-settings Linux and Windows for comparison but I can understand why they wanted to hit 20 hours for marketing.

Framework specifically has stated that they worked very hard to improve standby time and claim that it’s dramatically better. Being able to use LPDDR5x LP-CAMM2 modules aids in standby time significantly. We’ll find out soon when the first reviewers get their retail units in, probably within a month or so.

For standby time, my current framework 13 has never bothered me. It’s great that Macs have incredible standby but it’s much less of a dealbreaker than I originally thought it would be. I just have sleep to hibernate set up in Linux.

My system sleeps for 2 hours then hibernates afterward. If I am putting my system down for 2 hours I’m likely done using it for the day anyway.

Re: Asahi Linux 7.1 Progress Report

#115

Post by markus_zhang »

troyvit wrote: post #100
sneak wrote: post #8

It is baffling to me that Apple, ostensibly a hardware company (that happens to be pursuing services revenue the way a crackhead pursues crack), ridiculously flush with cash, doesn’t throw 2 or 3 of their thousands of FTEs on this. The goodwill/brand marketing alone is worth their comp, and it will absolutely move units as well. Linux people LOVE laptops, and Apple makes the best laptops by a parsec. It seems like 10…

They've been like this long before they were a digital services company. 25 years ago Yellow Dog Linux (another RPM based distro) had the same challenges working with PowerPC. The scientific community was clamoring for an open platform to use their native Linux software with the PowerPC, YDL filled that niche, and Apple watched their struggles supporting Linux on their platform with detached amusement.

Kinda think Asahi is not going to fair too much better in this fight. It’s an interesting exercise but most people won’t buy a Mac to use Linux. The only reason I’d buy an overpriced piece of hardware is because it can run Linux very well. But apparently people like me is negligible.

Re: Asahi Linux 7.1 Progress Report

#116

Post by Grombobulous »

watermelon0 wrote: post #78
urbsgpw wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never thought I'd think about switching from Apple. M1 was handsdown the best buy ever and I was sure my next laptop would be an Apple as well. But looking at framework, this looks really nice. Apple-ish but without some of the drawbacks (also, while windows stinks, not really a MacOS fanboy tbh). Makes me kinda regret I was lazy and locked myself in using Apple passwords app.

FYI Apple Passwords supports exporting of items including Passkeys, which can be then imported in e.g. Bitwarden.

TIL about exporting Passkeys, that’s a great tip.

Re: Asahi Linux 7.1 Progress Report

#117

Post by spockz »

Grombobulous wrote: post #106
spockz wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I checked a 16” framework last week comparing to the 24/48GiB MBP. The ssd is significantly faster, the RAM is almost twice as fast, the CPU has more cores. The only benefit is having a dedicated gpu. At more or less the same price. Admittedly, the screen ratio is better with the framework. But prefer the matte screen of the MacBook.

I personally think the 13 Pro is the one that’s truly competitive, the 16” is a very different story and not something I recommend specifically. Someone looking that machine who wants strong GPU performance, I’d probably send over to a Zephyrus G16 or something like that, and give up the modularity. SSD and RAM speed specs aren’t really something that impacts the user experience unless you’re doing local LLM work. Wh…

I’m mainly looking at the 16” mbp because of the beautiful screen and the refined hardware. For the work I use the laptop on my lap for (or in the evening at the kitchen table) to compare products, research holidays etc, I notice that 13” is too small to comfortably hold two browsers next to each other plus room for notes.

Then sometimes when I’m on the go I like to play a game or two, but nothing seriously requiring graphics power

SSD speed and RAM speed start mattering when memory pressure is high. And when doing stuff with video and photo editing.

The storage price is indeed steep and now the RAM price as well. I wish I hit the buy button when I had the chance before the price increase.

Re: Asahi Linux 7.1 Progress Report

#118

Post by macintux »

markus_zhang wrote: post #115
troyvit wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've been like this long before they were a digital services company. 25 years ago Yellow Dog Linux (another RPM based distro) had the same challenges working with PowerPC. The scientific community was clamoring for an open platform to use their native Linux software with the PowerPC, YDL filled that niche, and Apple watched their struggles supporting Linux on their platform with detached amusement.

Kinda think Asahi is not going to fair too much better in this fight. It’s an interesting exercise but most people won’t buy a Mac to use Linux. The only reason I’d buy an overpriced piece of hardware is because it can run Linux very well. But apparently people like me is negligible.

I think it'll have more of an impact with used hardware buyers. I wouldn't buy an M5 for Linux, but repurposing a cheap M1 in a few years? Absolutely.

Re: Asahi Linux 7.1 Progress Report

#119

Post by dandellion »

nosioptar wrote: post #82
Grombobulous wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t see that being a bad thing considering that the kernel is mandatory software in the Linux world. You would want to have high standards for what gets added.

You should have high standards. Torvalds often crosses that line into outright toxicity. I've written a few kernel patches that I never tried to upstream for that reason.

You'll never be able to agree on where that line should go. First because there's a cultural component to it. I'm from Spain so I can only talk for myself, but while he uses rude language, nothing I've ever read from him ever seemed particularly offensive. And second because any activity involving a large group of people will need some amount of toxicity if only to prevent other toxic people from derailing it, and since nobody thinks of themselves as the one that is being toxic to the project, there will always be some friction. You might not like fevers either, but they are necessary for a functioning immune system.

Re: Asahi Linux 7.1 Progress Report

#120

Post by coldtea »

bzzzt wrote: post #87
smith7018 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These people are singlehandedly saving _millions_ of laptops from going to the landfill one day. That's a valiant effort and they're doing it wonderfully. Regardless, one of the points of Linux is to install it on as much hardware as possible. Do you think people that managed to get it installed on iPods, PS5s, Wiis, Chromebooks, routers, Nintendo Switches, etc. should all stop just because they're doing something un…

Those laptops don't need to go to any landfill. They are much too precious to not recycle the metals and other materials and will be taken care of if you return them to the manufacturer. (by law, at least in the EU)

Recycling the metals is obviously far less useful than being able to still operate them even if Apple stops macOS updates for them!
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