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Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

wangcong.org

231–240 of 599 posts

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#231
post #60

Here's a simple idea: You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. And three interpretations to consider: 0: The default: That person is irrationally attached to being wrong. Best to walk away, argumentation will be futile, and I have a life to lead. 1: Whoa! Sometimes that person is me. 2: If they didn't reason themselves into it, how did they get into it? What if their position rep…

> You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. this is a pithy think to say but its really not true, and every person that has lost their religion and been convinced by rational argument is a counter example.

> every person that has lost their religion and been convinced by rational argument is a counter example.

Do you know any specific examples of this? All examples I know are like people collected some experiences, they needed some mental map for it, and they've built one that doesn't involve religion. In the process of building they really listened to rational arguments, but rational arguments were not the reason for the change, they were the means.

The author of the article complain that people do not listen to their arguments, but if we take a closer look, and look for bigger things, not things like the best way to write bubblesort, people are not ready to change their views while in an argument. They could listen for arguments, but they wouldn't change their position. It would be stupid to change the position in a heat of an argument. It may be stupid to change the position as a result of an argument. People needs time and may be a lot of conversations to look at things from different angles, to think it through. And after that it is very hard to pinpoint what was the reason of the loss of the religion. People talk with other, get new ideas, and they live their lives applying these ideas to the reality. Sometimes it leads to changes in their worldview.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#232
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm arguing for the people reading the comment chain, not necessarily the commenter's sake. I'm not sure people are reading comment chains deeply enough to be swayed by two strangers arguing online. All too often these days, folks are just engaging in point scoring type arguments and readers just agree with their tribe. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor that it's a good goal taken with care. But me personally the R…

> I'm not sure people are reading comment chains deeply enough to be swayed by two strangers arguing online. Counterpoint, literally doing that right now in this thread as I’m considering the merits of online discourse in the context of stoicism.

[dead]

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> If a flat earther became president what would be the consequences? Will we still have AC in the summer and heat in the winter, food on the table etc? Its fruitless going down the rabbit hole based off "what if". Look at the last US election. What if a climate denier became/becomes president? What would be the consequences? And not just on the planet but more locally: the folks that have to deal with hurricanes or w…

Depends: does the public consider this climate denying president to be a supreme dictator or an employee of the public?

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#234

They never mention they could’ve been wrong. The author assumes they’re always right, but that trying to convince others and argue them to their right side is not valuable. How about: maybe I’m wrong and I didn’t let their ideas influence me. How about: even when I think I’m right, it will be better to calmly kindly discuss, listening as much as talking, not debating or arguing or speaking over them, but attempting t…

There's no mention of anything slightly anecdotal so we could produce our own opinions, so we have to take everything at face value. But even then, if if the author we're completely right technically, he is completely wrong and still is, because it's much more important for the author to change minds than it is to stick with his duty. It's just someone unaware of their own ego thinking there is no ego just because he feels like he is right all the time.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#235
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm arguing for the people reading the comment chain, not necessarily the commenter's sake. I'm not sure people are reading comment chains deeply enough to be swayed by two strangers arguing online. All too often these days, folks are just engaging in point scoring type arguments and readers just agree with their tribe. Not saying it doesn't happen, nor that it's a good goal taken with care. But me personally the R…

> I'm not sure people are reading comment chains deeply enough to be swayed by two strangers arguing online I do, and I have. I’ve also argued something with someone and come out the other side convinced of their position. (Sometimes immediately. More often down the road. Nevertheless, a valuable exchange.)

A very similar experience here. Reading comment threads over the years has absolutely turned me on to perspectives I never even conceived of previously. I've reconsidered my positions (on political and technical matters, mainly) by reading the discourse in comment threads.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#236

In family and friend relationships, this all resonates completely. Where I struggle and find my ego self defensively screaming “But…!” is in work relationships. Product managers, where their wrongness makes my downstream life more miserable. Basically any relationship where I have a (self perceived) need for the outcome to be a certain way to protect/enhance my well being. Asymmetric relationships.

I’ve had friends refer to me as a “yes-man”, because I don’t really care where a group of people decide to go to dinner. It’s of little consequence and doesn’t create any negative downstream effects.

At work, when a poor decision means unnecessary work today, and ongoing maintenance for the next 5-10 years, I will oppose these things quite loudly and tell people they are wrong. I don’t see why I’d sign up for 10 years of thankless work I don’t understand without a fight.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#237
post #226

The author's argument is hilariously wrong because we've been doing something for thousands of years: teaching. And it works, to some degree. And how do teachers teach? They don't start by trying to argue or by trying to prove students wrong. They teach by showing what's fascinating. Taking the time to show people what's fascinating, what's perplexing, where the tension lies, and how it's resolved, is teaching. Argum…

This comment is so brutally ironic. Wow.

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#238

They never mention they could’ve been wrong. The author assumes they’re always right, but that trying to convince others and argue them to their right side is not valuable. How about: maybe I’m wrong and I didn’t let their ideas influence me. How about: even when I think I’m right, it will be better to calmly kindly discuss, listening as much as talking, not debating or arguing or speaking over them, but attempting t…

I'd love to know what one of those conversations looked like.

"Using this construct in this part of the code increases it's performance by half of a percent. Obviously, this should be changed."

"That code isn't in a hot loop and doing it that way makes it much less clear about what's going on there."

(rolling their eyes) "Using this construct..."

Re: Most arguments are about ego, not ideas

#239
FWIW I appreciate people like the author's old self. I am one of those who hates and simultaneously appreciates being corrected when I'm mistaken. I hate being mistaken and I appreciate the opportunity to correct the mistake.

While much of what the author says is true, I'm not so cynical as to think that it's impossible to change others.

The fact that you can change yourself — as the author acknowledges — means you can change others, because much of self-change comes from your observation of others. Perhaps it's the approach that matters most.

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