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30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

theintercept.com

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Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#151

Post by cucumber3732842 »

ipython wrote: post #102
cucumber3732842 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Ugh let’s not get all conspiracy theory up in here. Show me real evidence of that and I’ll believe you. Until then - to say at the same time - the Feds are so incompetent and also the Feds are organizing an elaborate secret network of agitators to be at all major protests and riots - let’s just say the logic doesn’t logic.

>Ugh let’s not get all conspiracy theory up in here. Show me real evidence of that and I’ll believe you.

Um, like half of all these "attack the government in some capacity" plots in the last 40yr. Probably more if you count all the "radical islamic terrorists" they riled up in the 00s and 10s when that was the cool thing for law enforcement to be entrapping.

The Michigan Fednapping is probably the most hilarious case since it turned out there were more feds than not who were in on it.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#152

Post by AdieuToLogic »

will4274 wrote: post #92
Ukv wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 30 year sentence was for hiding documentation [...] it wasn't just "transporting Zines" As far as I can tell, the moving of zines (he was pulled over and had a box in his car) is what's being presented as "hiding documentation" - not something beyond that. > being sought under a federal warrant Timeline seems to be that a warrant was obtained after pulling him over ("Sanchez-Estrada was then arrested on state t…

Being aware that he was moving the zines to obstruct a federal felony investigation is surely relevant. Intent is an important aspect of crime.

> Being aware that he was moving the zines to obstruct a federal felony investigation is surely relevant. Intent is an important aspect of crime.

A sentence of 30 years in prison for obstructing an investigation is excessive, especially when compared to the "base offense level" of Involuntary Manslaughter (section 2A1.4 found here[0]) being between 12 and 22, roughly translating to between 10 and 51 months in prison[1] (assuming no prior felony convictions).

Not 360 months, which is the length of this sentence.

0 - https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/guidelines-manu...

1 - https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/guidelines-manu...

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#153

Post by autoexec »

paisawalla wrote: post #52
devmor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I read, the person who was arrested for transporting zines was not even at the protest or part of the group - just the husband of one of the protestors.

[flagged]

The wife was charged with: Rioting with the intent to commit an act of violence, providing support to terrorists, and conspiracy to use and carry explosives.

In what way would a box of magazines be evidence of any one of those crimes? I very much doubt there was an article called "My plan to commit an act of violence by Maricela Rueda" in any of them. The ones they choose to photograph for inclusion in their criminal complaint (likely because they were the most scary looking ones) appear to have been written many years ago. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Literatu...

Two of those pictured are on archive.org and War in the streets : the story of urban combat from Calais to Khafji is available at amazon.com

https://dn790008.ca.archive.org/0/items/ItsVacantTakeIt/its-...

https://ia601803.us.archive.org/29/items/the-anarchist-libra...

It sounds to me like she was just making arrangements with her husband from jail to handle their property. She told him to have her car towed because it was left on the street by someone else's house and she told him to "move whatever you need to from the house" which is a pretty sensible heads up to give someone when you know that their house will likely be ransacked later by police who could take or destroy anything.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#154

Post by BobbyJo »

godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #111
mvdtnz wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that relevant to my comment?

Obviously because the nature of demonstrations as you describe are predicated on a counter party that follows the law. For example one may demonstrate to get a law changed, on the premise that they will not be shot on sight or otherwise extrajudically punished for assembling. Why would you expect entities of the state that behave illegally to engender an opposition to follow legal norms? This is not new in America. 2…

If you're fighting the executive branch, then legality goes out the window and any outrage about punishment becomes moot, no? Expecting the system you intended to subvert/dismantle to save you is a bit of a weird ask.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#155

Post by JackFr »

ipython wrote: post #57
paisawalla wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Just to be clear, the January 6 defendants: - were a group of at least 1000 people - who, among other things, erected a noose on the capitol grounds, brought zip ties and weapons - forcefully overran several capital police barricades intended to deter their entrance - used any weapon available including poles etc to violently attack any police in their way Granted they did not explicitly shoot any federal agents with…

But they were largely convicted and jailed. One absolute moral abomination of a human is responsible for pardoning them. (Thanks founders!)

The disparity in sentencing is likely that they credibly set an ambush to murder law enforcement

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#156

Post by BobbyJo »

felixgallo wrote: post #112
appreciatorBus wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think all of this hinges on whether or not you think it was a protest. If they had been peacefully sitting outside the facility holding signs, I think you'd have a case that the sentencing is insane. But if they were actively planning a break-in & preparing to use deadly force, that's quite another matter. I haven't spent a lot of timing reading about it, but what I have read suggests it was much closer to the latt…

'they' is doing a lot of work. This guy wasn't even there.

You don't have to be present for the act to be part of the conspiracy...

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#157

Post by godwinson__4-8 »

BobbyJo wrote: post #154
godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously because the nature of demonstrations as you describe are predicated on a counter party that follows the law. For example one may demonstrate to get a law changed, on the premise that they will not be shot on sight or otherwise extrajudically punished for assembling. Why would you expect entities of the state that behave illegally to engender an opposition to follow legal norms? This is not new in America. 2…

If you're fighting the executive branch, then legality goes out the window and any outrage about punishment becomes moot, no? Expecting the system you intended to subvert/dismantle to save you is a bit of a weird ask.

Not at all? To the American founders that would be a psychotic take that is completely at odds with the founding principles of this country.

Have you read about the Continental Congress? They thought pretty hard about these questions. They did not engage in insurrection (what would surely today be called "terrorism") against the crown lightly and without great consideration.

You should take the opportunity of the 250th anniversary to educate yourself as opposed to writing such comments. Nothing about your comment makes any sense in almost any legal context, in America or otherwise. How could something like laws of armed conflict even be comprehensible under your standard? Truly I am sad for the state of your mind that you wrote such a comment.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#158

Post by wat10000 »

will4274 wrote: post #92
Ukv wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 30 year sentence was for hiding documentation [...] it wasn't just "transporting Zines" As far as I can tell, the moving of zines (he was pulled over and had a box in his car) is what's being presented as "hiding documentation" - not something beyond that. > being sought under a federal warrant Timeline seems to be that a warrant was obtained after pulling him over ("Sanchez-Estrada was then arrested on state t…

Being aware that he was moving the zines to obstruct a federal felony investigation is surely relevant. Intent is an important aspect of crime.

Intent is important but it’s not sufficient. Intent to obstruct isn’t enough. You have to actually intend to do something that would count as obstruction. It’s not illegal for me to make a sandwich even if I sincerely believe that making this sandwich will obstruct a felony investigation.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#159

Post by stevenwoo »

expedition32 wrote: post #19
Ukv wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 30 year sentence was for hiding documentation [...] it wasn't just "transporting Zines" As far as I can tell, the moving of zines (he was pulled over and had a box in his car) is what's being presented as "hiding documentation" - not something beyond that. > being sought under a federal warrant Timeline seems to be that a warrant was obtained after pulling him over ("Sanchez-Estrada was then arrested on state t…

Chilling effect on demonstrations. If you attend one were someone starts shooting you become an accomplice. And ofcourse this also leaves the door open for a "false flag" incident.

Unless one is a right wing protestor like Kyle Rittenhouse.

Re: 30-year sentence for transporting zines is a five-alarm fire for free speech

#160

Post by jeffbee »

nl wrote: post #150
customguy wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way could that possibly have obstructed that investigation?

The link above literally says: > Conspiracy to Conceal Documents (Count 12) and other objects that would implicate Maricela Rueda in the riot and shooting at the Prairieland facility. > Defendants convicted: Sanchez Estrada and Maricela Rueda Obviously prosecutors always present things in the worst possible way for defendants, but I think the GP poster's point is pretty valid: > Being aware that he was moving the zin…

Yeah, but I think the question is whether his actions did in fact obstruct justice. Both are relevant.
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