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European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

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Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#81

Post by Arubis »

braiamp wrote: post #80
Arubis wrote: post #53

This strikes me as the right move, but the timing isn't lost on me. Model training companies want easier access to data, and they have a lot of money and are growing their lobbying and political influence muscles. The culture of the people should belong to _the people_. Let's make sure this doesn't just turn into a transfer of which small subset manages to profit from it.

The timing isn't lost on you, it's on the wrong galaxy. This is the regular requests for comments that the commission does on digital markets, the ISP's have been saying this since a while ago > In a new filing to the Commission’s ongoing assessment of the Copyright in the Digital Single Market Directive, EuroISPA once again sounds the alarm, pointing out that the piracy blocking climate in some countries is getting…

Hm. Am I understanding correctly that this is a repeated and periodic complaint, not a new thing being raised by ISPs? Most of my familiarity with ISP policies is from being stateside, where there's a large overlap in ownership between ISPs and media companies and predictable alignment in policies.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#82

Post by zoltrix303 »

bradley13 wrote: post #12

It's not just Europe. DMCA takedowns in the US: no liability for taking down innocent content. Really, it comes down to this: censorship is bad. Always. If someone violates the law, get a court judgement. With the judgement in hand, take down that specific material. Too much work? Tough...

Serious question, what would the ramifications of an economic solution? If you appeal content removal and your challenge is validated, the platform then applies a financial penalty to the requester? It would reduce drastically the amounts of request and thus false positives?

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#83

Post by tialaramex »

microgpt wrote: post #59
expo98 wrote: post #16

I hope so, in Spain you can't access anything that uses Cloudflare, even docker images, thanks to LaLiga's president bullshit

It's also due to Cloudflare intentionally not policing its customers even a little bit, but i still side with CF - they're the less bad guys.

I think for Cloudflare it's both an obvious slippery slope - like, this isn't one of those dubious analogies where there seems to be an obvious bright line and the slippery slope argument seems far-fetched, the incredulity of non-soccer fans when the Spain situation is explained tells you everything you need to know.

And it's just technically much easier to not do this. If you do this, and somebody else doesn't they're undercutting you. The "bad guys" want that uninfringed service of course - but so does everybody else because it's cheaper.

I'd be interested to know, obviously people love football - the sport, the players, the teams at least in the abstract - but, La Liga itself, is this considered like holy the way football is, is it a slightly bureaucratic organisation that isn't as much respected and so if they start coming for individual fans it won't go so well, or are we talking almost FIFA-levels of "These are corrupt people, money vampires who drain €€€€ from our beautiful sport, I hope they all burn in hell" ???

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#84

Post by buran77 »

greenavocado wrote: post #6
gonzalohm wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US there is lobbying. In Spain there is soccer. I have seen crazy things done just for soccer. The town I used to live in closed my street for a few weeks during one world cup. I wasn't able to use my garage during all that time. Also, somehow small towns always find money available for soccer related stuff (like building stadiums, events, etc.) but there is no money for improving healthcare or building parks.…

> Also, somehow small towns always find money available for soccer related stuff (like building stadiums, events, etc.) but there is no money for improving healthcare or building parks. Bread and circuses. Whatever it takes to suppress the instinctual nationalistic ambitions of the people by redirecting their spirits and energy into /dev/null

The circus would be there regardless. The reason this happens is because football leagues have a lot of money and some judges have a lot of pockets to fill and many are also utterly nontechnical.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#85

Post by bethekidyouwant »

microgpt wrote: post #59
expo98 wrote: post #16

I hope so, in Spain you can't access anything that uses Cloudflare, even docker images, thanks to LaLiga's president bullshit

It's also due to Cloudflare intentionally not policing its customers even a little bit, but i still side with CF - they're the less bad guys.

“Policing its customers” what do you want cloud-flair to do?

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#86

Post by GuB-42 »

gonzalohm wrote: post #18
greenavocado wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, somehow small towns always find money available for soccer related stuff (like building stadiums, events, etc.) but there is no money for improving healthcare or building parks. Bread and circuses. Whatever it takes to suppress the instinctual nationalistic ambitions of the people by redirecting their spirits and energy into /dev/null

Those are my thoughts too. I believe there was a world cup or euro cup during the 2008 crisis, which Spain suffered specially badly. All countries were getting out of the "hole" except Spain, but hey we won the euro cup so suddenly our country was the best and everyone forgot about it

Which I believe is a good thing. An economic crisis is tough, let people have some joy. I am not into spectator sports, and certainly not soccer, but the positives emotions that go with it are worth it, I think.

If you think about it, how often do you hear good news? A war here, a disaster there, a mass murder,... And it is not because of the current world situation, it is always the case, we usually don't talk about things that go right. Go ahead, go to your favorite news website and see for yourself. Chances are that the only good news you see are sports related. The only other source of good news I can think of is science and technology with their new discoveries, but even there, plenty of bad news too, like with climate change and price hikes.

Sports is the only consistent supplier of good news. Of course, sometimes, you lose, but losses are easy to forget, it is just another blip in the sea of bad news. But with all the sports that is happening, there is always something to make your day: your local team winning in a local tournament, there are even some losing matches you can be proud of.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#87

Post by matheusmoreira »

Finally. "Rightsholders" have always been abusing the system, anything that applies a chilling effect on them is a good thing. But will it actually happen? Copyright monopolists always seem to get away with everything they do. I've kinda lost hope.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#88

Post by protocolture »

huijzer wrote: post #21
nonethewiser wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isnt taking down illegal content censorship? If not you can get around the absolute statement “censorship is always bad” by just making more things illegal. I think censorship is so clearly good in some scenarios that we would never think to even debate it. Like child porn.

Just to be sure to point out the obvious here, I think the main police effort should be on catching the sources of such material. There is the root problem. In a world were we’re ruled by Epstein friends, this is probably not gonna happen though

QLD Police publish much of the material as part of their investigations into CSAM, running honeypot websites and so forth.

Apparently its basically verboten to ask them how many they caught vs how many they supplied.

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#89

Post by AnthonyMouse »

nonethewiser wrote: post #44
izacus wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but let's prioritize catching actual criminals, right? Somehow US started completely ignoring the actual criminals and demanding platforms to play police and not try to punish the actual sources of lawbreaking.

I think they should catch the criminals as well, like I already clearly stated. They just aren’t mutually exclusive.

They are, however, mutually overlapping. If the creators are in prison then they're not distributing any content, nor causing any more to be created which subsequently gets distributed. Which means that 99% of effort should be focused on stopping the creators and censorship is something that you should only do when it isn't a trade off against anything important.

In particular, it means that we don't need prior restraint or intermediary liability. If someone is posting something so bad that it's a crime then it will come out at the poster's trial and their deterrent to posting it is the criminal penalties, not YouTube's account strike random number generator. If something isn't that bad then it doesn't need to be censored whatsoever.

Notice also that the premise that we can actually censor the things you're using as your example is contrary to evidence. What are you going to do about a server in another jurisdiction? Do we need a censorship apparatus which is only effective for suppressing dissenting mass market content while being useless for the thing used as the example to justify its existence?

Re: European ISPs Want Rightsholders Held Accountable for Overblocking Damage

#90

Post by wmf »

bethekidyouwant wrote: post #85
microgpt wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also due to Cloudflare intentionally not policing its customers even a little bit, but i still side with CF - they're the less bad guys.

“Policing its customers” what do you want cloud-flair to do?

For one thing they could put pirate sites on a separate IP so when that IP gets blocked it doesn't take out legitimate sites.
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