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EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

patrick-breyer.de

401–410 of 463 posts

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#401
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What, when it comes to corporations I can 'vote with my wallet'? I'm sure Apple, whose profits exceed those of some developed countries, will surely change their ways if I boycott them over stuff like the Uyghur slave shops. Your argument is that voting with your wallet doesn't change things even if it reduces the profits of the company by an amount proportional to the number of people who do it, but voting in an e…

I agree that governments could be better at monopoly busting and that a wide variety of choice is better (here in Belgium there are enough different parties (the Greens, the Socialists, the Labour Party, the Christian Democrats, the Liberals, some right wing parties,...) that it seems to work okay, but I gather that elsewhere there's a dearth of choice). The biggest problem with 'voting with my wallet' is that it mea…

> The biggest problem with 'voting with my wallet' is that it means we get the bad old democracy back: the poor don't get to vote, the rich get to vote more.

The thing about "vote with your wallet" is that it's not actually a tabulation. Poor people wouldn't get a "vote" as to which yacht companies succeed or fail because they don't buy yachts, but for the same reason, why should they then care anything about yacht companies?

Conversely, the ordinary person still buys necessities, and at scale buys them in larger numbers than rich people do, because the majority of people aren't rich. So the companies making the things ordinary people actually buy do have to be responsive to them.

> I know in the USA there's been some back and forth about it regarding voter ID laws (getting an ID costs money so it penalizes the poor) and the fact that people who can only vote by going to the poll office may get penalized by their employers (who can dock wages for the time the employee spent not working)

The whole thing is so dumb. Just require ID to vote and then don't charge any fees to get an ID. Just open the polls at 8PM the eve of election day and keep them open a full contiguous 24 hours so that nobody has to come during work hours regardless of what shift they work.

> but technically there is universal suffrage and it's better than what came before.

"Technically" seems to be doing a lot of work there, because the actual problems have nothing to do with people not being able to get off work to vote.

The main one is that you have a ballot with a small, finite number of viable candidates and none of them represent your interests. In many cases they all have the same position on a particular issue and that position is different from yours. Even when their positions differ, the ones you agree with don't align.

Candidate A supports zoning reform and opposes alternative energy, Candidate B opposes zoning reform and supports alternative energy, you want both zoning reform and alternative energy, therefore you're screwed into flipping a coin. And so is everyone else, which means the politicians don't actually have to do what anybody wants because most of the votes are people who didn't like any of the candidates holding their nose to choose the one they think is the lesser evil, only to have their vote canceled out by someone who 90% agrees with them on everything but came out the other way on the coin flip.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still remember conversations here on HN, around the time Facebook was launched. It was considered insanity that you would give up your privacy to a firm. I remember how that what seemed absurdly risky, meant absolutely nothing to the average person, and the astronomic value Facebook began to accumulate. I wonder if it wasn't social media that set up the death spiral of the internet. The walled gardens on content an…

I didn't see it that way. when Facebook started it was like an intimate club. Classmates.com was charging money for reunion information and Facebook was free. It was the IPO that really tipped the scales. In that one day Zuck became a Billionaire with everybody else's information. We were bamboozled. Subscription versus free but not really.

Perhaps you didn't see it that way.

However, I do remember the conversations from that time.

I still don't have any social media other than LinkedIn that connects to my identity, and warned family against it for as long as I could.

Saying people on HN were bamboozled is ludicrous. HN is an old bastions for people who argue for privacy and anonymity. I sincerely doubt (hope) that many people would say they were fooled. That would indicate a degree of intellectual immaturity and avoidance of concequence which makes any other position held suspect.

It was clear that there was no other way this was going to go. Saying the IPO tipped the scales is also being wildly generous to firms.

Perhaps its the other side of the coin of the HN zeitgeist? faith in firms matching the distrust in government.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And either 80% of banners are not respecting the law, or the law managed to omit mandating making it as easy to reject as accept... Rejecting usually require you to enter into settings and sometimes click "reject" for every individual partner(!)

That was the case in the beginning, for a while. Now I rarely see even ones where I have to click Settings and Reject all, usually it's just Accept all and Accept only essential. No dark patterns just two equally visible buttons. Often also just "We use only essential cookies" and OK button because they don't have 1138 partners they want to sell your data to

I also see more of these, but I'd say still around half require more click for "reject non-essential"

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All the quotes are clearly talking about closer integration Are you saying "the ends justify the means" of this "closer integration"? With that logic, Hitler's end goal was also closer integration of Europe's countries once he conquered them all. >If you don't like it leave Impossible to leave now when you joined 20+ years ago, when the EU was something completely different, which now grew beyond what you signed up…

> Are you saying "the ends justify the means" of this "closer integration"? With that logic, Hitler's end goal was also closer integration of Europe's countries once he conquered them all. I am saying a closer union was what was agreed upon. > Impossible to leave now when you joined 20+ years ago, when the EU was something completely different, which now grew beyond what you signed up for, without fucking your econom…

>I am saying a closer union was what was agreed upon.

Again, that vague argument does not disprove my argument.

Does the end justify the means? Yes, or no? If yes, then what's the point of democracy and free will, if no, what's the point of the EU forcing its will on everyone?

>Also if your countrymen are pro further EU integration

What does "further EU integration" even mean? Being an even bigger bitch to clueless out of touch unelected bureaucrats in Brussels to deiced things in countries they can't find on the map, whose language they don't speak, whose economy and culture they don't understand?

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#406
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All the quotes are clearly talking about closer integration Are you saying "the ends justify the means" of this "closer integration"? With that logic, Hitler's end goal was also closer integration of Europe's countries once he conquered them all. >If you don't like it leave Impossible to leave now when you joined 20+ years ago, when the EU was something completely different, which now grew beyond what you signed up…

> Impossible to leave now when you joined 20+ years ago, when the EU was something completely different, which now grew beyond what you signed up for, without fucking your economy. It's called a rug pull with a dead man's switch. Try to leave and we make sure we all blow up. The EU was always designed to be an "ever closer union". It's literally in the Treaty of Rome from 1957 (!). This is explicitly what was signed…

>The EU was always designed to be an "ever closer union".

Wow, isn't it convenient that such a vague all-encompassing paper from the past that you never voted for, can be used a justification for anything being done to you today?

What are the boundaries for that "ever closer union"? At which point it it just close enough? Or is it open ended? Would you sign an open ended contract with the bank? That wouldn't be legal.

>It's literally in the Treaty of Rome from 1957 (!)

How many Europeans alive today voted for that in 1957? Were they aware when they signed it of what it would lead to or were they duped into signing something so vague and all-encompassing that will be used to do anything against them in the future?

>This is explicitly what was signed up for.

That's the problem, it's vague and not explicit at all.

> This was always the goal.

Really? In 1957 people back then already knew that in the future they would cede their national sovereignty to a unelected bureaucrat in Brussels who would make decisions against their nation's best interest?

>It is specifically what everyone signed on to.

Who exactly is that "everyone"? I never voted for this. Neither did my parents.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#407

The common fallacy people have regarding chat control (and should be clarified) is that it's not like internet is made of a few select providers, anyone can open an encrypted tcp connection from an ip to another, and the global traffic is too massive to be scrutinized, also the most widely available apps already comply to the single police request to access conversations from suspects. This means that this will creat…

Yeah but messaging apps are really only useful if there are lots of people on them to message. So in the real world a relatively small number of providers, WhatsApp, Signal etc, are in a position where all your friends are going to be on them. And those are the ones likely to be named and told they need to implement image scanning/review.

> So in the real world a relatively small number of providers.

Why do we even need providers? Locally store the convos on each device and there's not a need for the server.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#408
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peace between EU countries was stable even before the formation of the modern EU.

Before the formation of the European Coal & Steel community, the direct predecessor to the EU, we literally had a millenium of non-stop slaughter.

Yes, and the European Coal & Steel community didn't stop the slaughter, the nuclear powered US stopped did. The stopped slaughtering wouldn't have continued without the EU. Everyone in Europa couldn't have kept doing it even if they wanted to with 80 US military based on the continent.

You give the EU too much credit for peace. In fact, there's way more tensions between EU countries now as EU members than in the past. Poland even went to buy weapons from Korea and build them on-shore because they don't trust buying weapons from France and Germany. Just because EU countries aren't slaughtering each other, doesn't mean they like or trust each other.

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Council is the member states. The Commission are their appointed civil service and work on whatever agenda is set by the Council (the member states). Almost everything people complain about coming out of "the EU" originates in the national elected governments. About the only ones actually protecting the people of the MEPs (the elected EU MPs). They keep shutting this sort of stuff down, and then some member state…

I don't disagree with this: I'm saying that unless the power is of the Council and Commission is restrained, all the goodwill of the Parliament is an uphill battle and all people of the Member States are subjected to the corruption of unelected people like Ursula von der Leyden or of (temporarily?) problematic policies of some of the Member States' governments (like Denmark on Chat Control).

You can't restrain the power of the Council. The Council is the member states. What you're proposing would take power away from the member states and hand it to, who? People already think the EU is undemocratic, imagine after that.

The main problem is that people still do not understand how the EU works. They don't understand that almost everything comes from the direction the member states push from the Council.

And in fact, I think the member states like it that way, or why else wouldn't they educate people more?

Re: EU to legislate about Chat Control behind closed doors

#410

The common fallacy people have regarding chat control (and should be clarified) is that it's not like internet is made of a few select providers, anyone can open an encrypted tcp connection from an ip to another, and the global traffic is too massive to be scrutinized, also the most widely available apps already comply to the single police request to access conversations from suspects. This means that this will creat…

> which is hilarious coming after the Files.

Files?

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