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Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

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Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#251

Post by stavros »

fyredge wrote: post #193
stavros wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because perfect law enforcement means society can never change. Imagine if, back when it was illegal to be gay, every gay person was immediately sentenced. Do you think we'd be accepting homosexuality today?

Yes, because the zeitgeist still changes regardless of enforcement. If all gay people were sentenced purely for their sexuality and nothing else, how long do you think it will take for ordinary folk to change their view? I reckon not long, unless the society is completely devoid of empathy and justice.

If you think that a society that actively harassed and persecuted homosexuals would spontaneously take pity on them, we have such different understandings on the world that debate can't be productive.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#252

Post by pprotas »

febusravenga wrote: post #161
aucisson_masque wrote: post #119

If I say something illegal during a meeting, people will notice it and will report it to the police. Then I may get arrested or fined. Why should it be different on the internet ? Provided we live in countries where freedom of speech is enacted. Of course in Russia or china it's different but surely they already have tools like that.

Its not about saying illegal things. It's mostly about saying things that can get you canceled in future in future culture. Dark jokes and strong opinions are example - you something filthy - let's say dark Holocaust/Nazi joke but funny in situation In group that accept it and it's ok. But if it's recorded, it'll stay forever and will surface in most unexpected moment, like job interview or some other screening by go…

Are you arguing that Holocaust/Nazi jokes should be accepted socially, as long as you only deliver them to people who respond positively to Holocaust/Nazi jokes?

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#253

Post by bluegatty »

Telaneo wrote: post #186
bluegatty wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It literally does - and you just admitted it. The point is that 'even the local library' enacts rules and social conventions - not that they're exhaustively and acutely enforced in all corners. No 4chan section in the library? You might wonder why it doesn't have vast array of avant guard adult content, porn or art with really aggressive themes and people calling each other the n-word? In society we have 'age related…

> It literally does - and you just admitted it. I can be 9 years old and go to the library and read any book they have without showing ID. Whatever your point is, it escapes me. > The point is that 'even the local library' enacts rules and social conventions - not that they're exhaustively and acutely enforced in all corners. Then let us do the same thing on the internet. Age verification is not that (at least in the…

[flagged]

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#254

Post by coldtea »

lelandbatey wrote: post #179
friendzis wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you think about it, the idea of a representative democracy is rooted in the technical difficulties of implementing a direct democracy: both spread of information/discussion to the masses and organizing the votes. In this day and age, probably with a relatively tiny investment into public access points, we could very reasonably have a technically functional direct democracy. The legislative cycle is already authe…

Is there such a thing as "unbiased public opinion" at all though? The memetic effects of language and communication means propaganda and similar tools of rhetoric and leveraged communication will always work, with or without an internet. There's no "solution", only "good enoughs". Direct democracy is cool, but also impractical. I do not want to vote on every counties appropriations for road maintenance. So what's a l…

>Is there such a thing as "unbiased public opinion" at all though?

Doesn't really matter except philosophically. There's something close enough to unbiased public opinion when there are no government propaganda campaings, censorship, press owned by conglomerates, and corporate messaging.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#255

Post by stymaar »

nly wrote: post #250
stymaar wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the internet this involves some kind of video recording being sent to some agency somewhere being paid a fee, who may later be asked to prove the efficacy of their service. This agency needs a digital copy of the photo from your ID for matching purposes. That's why I'm talking about an “Id card” using Zero-knowledge proofs in a cryptographic chip, not using a paper ID with your picture on top…

Doesn't matter! You still need to send a digital image from the id, signed by an authority, saying "this person is 18" You then still need a trusted ID service or algorithm to capture an image of the user _at the time of use_ to compare that to. Just having access to your digital ID credentials proves nothing The zero knowledge proof only helps prevent tracking between the ID service and the website you're logging in…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#256

Post by coldtea »

dguest wrote: post #191
lelandbatey wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there such a thing as "unbiased public opinion" at all though? The memetic effects of language and communication means propaganda and similar tools of rhetoric and leveraged communication will always work, with or without an internet. There's no "solution", only "good enoughs". Direct democracy is cool, but also impractical. I do not want to vote on every counties appropriations for road maintenance. So what's a l…

I think everyone can agree that having O(100M) people vote on every local initiative is absurd. But a lot of countries are somewhere on the "direct" vs "representative" spectrum. The US actually abnormally lacking in direct mechanisms, for example. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_by_country

>I think everyone can agree that having O(100M) people vote on every local initiative is absurd.

I'm one of those everyones, and I don't agree.

Except if you mean local initiatives that don't concern 100M people, but e.g. some regional municipality. Of course then just the locals can vote, be they 100K or 1M.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#257

Post by Aeolun »

friendzis wrote: post #166
roenxi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, the evidence is that people already pretty firmly against things like chat control and the will to push it through tends to come from the political circles more than popular belief it is a good idea. I expect that if the measure itself went to a general vote, the majority would be against it once they have to deal with a specific proposal. It takes repeated pushes by the authoritarians looking for an opp…

When you think about it, the idea of a representative democracy is rooted in the technical difficulties of implementing a direct democracy: both spread of information/discussion to the masses and organizing the votes. In this day and age, probably with a relatively tiny investment into public access points, we could very reasonably have a technically functional direct democracy. The legislative cycle is already authe…

If you make it legal to sell your vote, it’d become very obvious very quickly how much money is in politics.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#258

Post by stymaar »

usrnm wrote: post #232
Rebuff5007 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are those things naturally "whats next"? We allow bars and car companies to verify age before conducting business. Does that in itself lead to racial discrimination? I think not.

The issue is the scale and centralization of information. Let's imagine that every bar has to not only check the id of every customer but do it automatically: every time you enter a bar anywhere in the country you must have your id scanned by a government-issued system. Are you still ok with it?

That's why we need privacy preserving designs.

But saying “we must abandon the idea of age verification in bar” is never going to work in any democratic setting.

Voters genuinely want to protect the children, without second thoughts.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#259

Post by nephihaha »

po1nt wrote: post #214
lelandbatey wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there such a thing as "unbiased public opinion" at all though? The memetic effects of language and communication means propaganda and similar tools of rhetoric and leveraged communication will always work, with or without an internet. There's no "solution", only "good enoughs". Direct democracy is cool, but also impractical. I do not want to vote on every counties appropriations for road maintenance. So what's a l…

The best level of democracy is no democracy. The problem of voting for road repairs is a problem we created by democracy. We voted ourselves into a system we can't escape, just because people back in the days couldn't fully comprehend side effects of their collective decisions. Very few people realize that there is option to not use government cohersion as a solution to everything. I know this is unpopular opinion. T…

Actually quite a few people care about the UK having a king, in the UK. In Northern Ireland, there is a considerable republican (small "r" population) for political reasons.

The BBC promotes the monarchy heavily as it is under royal charter.

There were significant protests at the Queen's funeral cortege and the current king's coronation. The state clamped down hard, in one case arresting someone for holding up a blank bit of paper.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#260

Post by basisword »

onion2k wrote: post #10

If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spo…

>> If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything

Does this not imply we also wouldn't get the internet because people would have considered the damage it would also cause?

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