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Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

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Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#191

Post by dguest »

lelandbatey wrote: post #179
friendzis wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you think about it, the idea of a representative democracy is rooted in the technical difficulties of implementing a direct democracy: both spread of information/discussion to the masses and organizing the votes. In this day and age, probably with a relatively tiny investment into public access points, we could very reasonably have a technically functional direct democracy. The legislative cycle is already authe…

Is there such a thing as "unbiased public opinion" at all though? The memetic effects of language and communication means propaganda and similar tools of rhetoric and leveraged communication will always work, with or without an internet. There's no "solution", only "good enoughs". Direct democracy is cool, but also impractical. I do not want to vote on every counties appropriations for road maintenance. So what's a l…

I think everyone can agree that having O(100M) people vote on every local initiative is absurd.

But a lot of countries are somewhere on the "direct" vs "representative" spectrum. The US actually abnormally lacking in direct mechanisms, for example. See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_by_country

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#192

Post by maccard »

roenxi wrote: post #29
onion2k wrote: post #10

If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spo…

In fairness, the evidence is that people already pretty firmly against things like chat control and the will to push it through tends to come from the political circles more than popular belief it is a good idea. I expect that if the measure itself went to a general vote, the majority would be against it once they have to deal with a specific proposal. It takes repeated pushes by the authoritarians looking for an opp…

I’m not in favour of Chat Control;

> the evidence is that people already pretty firmly against things like chat control and the will to push it through tends to come from the political circles more than popular belief it is a good idea.

This is quite the statement. What evidence do you have that of this? Here in the UK, the equivalent bills are pretty widely supported across he board.

> I expect that if the measure itself went to a general vote, the majority would be against it once they have to deal with a specific proposal

This is likely true of pretty much anything, though. Imagine suggesting that people collectively fund a national road network by paying 20% of their income to the government (or whatever number your state/country/municipality chooses). All of a sudden it’s a terrible idea!

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#193

Post by fyredge »

stavros wrote: post #121
aucisson_masque wrote: post #119

If I say something illegal during a meeting, people will notice it and will report it to the police. Then I may get arrested or fined. Why should it be different on the internet ? Provided we live in countries where freedom of speech is enacted. Of course in Russia or china it's different but surely they already have tools like that.

Because perfect law enforcement means society can never change. Imagine if, back when it was illegal to be gay, every gay person was immediately sentenced. Do you think we'd be accepting homosexuality today?

Yes, because the zeitgeist still changes regardless of enforcement. If all gay people were sentenced purely for their sexuality and nothing else, how long do you think it will take for ordinary folk to change their view? I reckon not long, unless the society is completely devoid of empathy and justice.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#194

Post by Klonoar »

shevy-java wrote: post #83
RachelF wrote: post #41

Age verification is just one part of this crackdown. Device attestation is another - making sure you're using an unmodified government approved operating system and apps linked to your ID.

> making sure you're using an unmodified government approved operating system Will be interesting to see if this leads to more Linux systems being deployed. Then again with systemd supporting age sniffing ( https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954 ), evading this becomes harder and harder.

Systemd changes don’t make it harder, you control the damn OS at the source code level if you choose.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#195

Post by alt227 »

h4kunamata wrote: post #153

Age verification is an excuse to hide the fact that parents have become useless and should have their rights of becoming parents revoked. If you ask any millenial, none of this bs existed during our time, parents wouldn't think twice to educate you, if you know you know haha That statement is weird in itself because said parents are yesterday's millenial. Add to that how companies and governments are trying to become…

> Ohh did you say something a politician or a cop didn't like??? Now they can hunt you down and force you to delete the post or whatever.

Thats not true, as displayed by the recent Afroman case.

https://edition.cnn.com/2026/03/19/entertainment/afroman-law...

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#196

Post by Telaneo »

applfanboysbgon wrote: post #169
stymaar wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This assumes good faith, which doesn't match reality. It's about control, not protecting children. “ Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. ” > Given your idea of a physical card, kids will find a way to use the card of their parents. Sure there are kids who have access to their parents credit card with the PIN, but how frequent is that? In every system, fraud will exist, but tha…

> “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.” This is not an argument, it's just a stupid quip. And I would sooner suggest that you "never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by malice". Humans are overwhelmingly selfish and more than willing to harm others to serve themselves.

Given the amount of malice in the world, that's not even an unreasonable statement. Even more so if you agree that being in a position of power while not having the expertise needed to fulfil it is itself malicious.

The traditional quip works well on small-scale stuff, but if there's loads of money or power to be gained, malice and greed tends to be fairly prevalent.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#197

Post by zahlman »

shevy-java wrote: post #83
RachelF wrote: post #41

Age verification is just one part of this crackdown. Device attestation is another - making sure you're using an unmodified government approved operating system and apps linked to your ID.

> making sure you're using an unmodified government approved operating system Will be interesting to see if this leads to more Linux systems being deployed. Then again with systemd supporting age sniffing ( https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954 ), evading this becomes harder and harder.

Why would it? Such a government would just... not approve Linux, if it interfered with their objectives.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#198

Post by [deleted] »

tryauuum wrote: post #118
LandenLove wrote: post #13

My theory is that age verification is just another way to push human verification. These large tech companies need a way to verify a user is a real person and not an AI bot. Both for displaying ads to real users and cutting down on spam. Nobody would support a "give away my anonymity online so I can be shown an ad for Coca Cola" bill. But it's easier to sell a law to boomers and lawmakers if you use the disguise of "…

The ad companies I think would want the opposite If they cannot distinguish real people from bots they can just charge more for more ads shown !

[deleted]

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#199

Post by theodric »

beezlewax wrote: post #138
roenxi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, the evidence is that people already pretty firmly against things like chat control and the will to push it through tends to come from the political circles more than popular belief it is a good idea. I expect that if the measure itself went to a general vote, the majority would be against it once they have to deal with a specific proposal. It takes repeated pushes by the authoritarians looking for an opp…

I emailed my local TD minister in Ireland about the inherent dangers of chat control. They had some lacky respond with an email that framed the conversation in a way that made it look like I was interested in the illegal content and not privacy/control or nefarious future governments.

Respond and ask them directly if they're accusing you of a crime, or if they intend to address the point of your message rather than making libelous statements that they may later be forced to explain should they persist.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#200

Post by alt227 »

pibaker wrote: post #172
zarzavat wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems unlikely that running a website without age verification will be illegal across the entire planet.

So if you want to run a BBS for say vintage motorcycle owners, you have to move to a country without such laws and make sure to never set foot in any country that does?

No, you just have to host it there and use a VPN. Like all piracy sites are done right now.
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