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Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

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Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#141

Post by simondotau »

dv_dt wrote: post #135
bluegatty wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, obviously not, and this is a completely glib argument. Who is suggesting people 'show their papers' to go into a public square? Literally nobody. It really demonstrates how bad the analogy is - so much so that it's not even analogy. The 'social controls' on the 'public square' are limited by a few laws (aka directed violence) but apart from that you can say as you like, kids can as well - it's where parents can b…

The science for age bans on social media is weak at best. There were pretty much terrible studies done during Covid and did not attribute all sorts of uncertainty going on at the same time. If the point were to improve on the mental health of kids there are countless underfunded public programs. Especially in the US, social support programs like food, healthcare basic and mental, actual physical public spaces for kid…

For what it’s worth, as an Australian, and as the operator of an online community, I unreservedly approve of the social media ban enforced by our government.

Conversely, I don’t agree with the way some other countries are going about it. Especially the UK with the abysmal way they have physically policed online speech by adults. Incredibly sad to see police prioritise non-violent “speech crimes” because they’re too scaredy-cat to tackle actual violent crime.

There is a reasonable answer to be found, if we're willing to be inventive. It shouldn’t be beyond the imagination of cryptography experts to design a system where only governments can issue an age identification certificate, which individuals can use to generate verifiable proof of age tokens. But where the tokens can’t be used by the government to identify the individual.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#142

Post by rockskon »

microgpt wrote: post #124
rockskon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As cynical as it sounds given its frequent use in marketing and often inappropriate use in legal circles, securing what data is collected is important too. Raise the bar for a data breach. It has value. Much more value if the law did a much better job of restricting what is collected in the first place and its dissemination.

Punishing companies for data breaches will solve more data breaches than any amount of encryption.

I find that particularly unrealistic that we can arrive at a good place solely by fining companies for data breaches.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#143

Post by MaKey »

stymaar wrote: post #100
onion2k wrote: post #10

If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spo…

“Age verification” isn't a problem in itself, the problem is how it's done. They could issue a physical id card with a cryptographic chip and do the age verification in a zero-knowledge fashion and it would be perfectly fine. The problem is the lack of thinking about the solution and just handwaving “age verification” as a political posture, which is why we end up with half-baked systems.

This assumes good faith, which doesn't match reality. It's about control, not protecting children.

Also age verification is still a problem in itself. Given your idea of a physical card, kids will find a way to use the card of their parents. Even if the card couldn't be misused by others - you give platforms the knowledge of whom is a minor, which means they can be targeted better.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#144

Post by 5693802 »

onion2k wrote: post #52
NoPicklez wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well we teach people the health benefits of physical activity school but many don't continue with it.

Sorry, this is going to be a rant. :) Admittedly it's a long time since I was in school, but when I was there the notion of teaching the benefits of physical activity was limited to being told to run about for some 'sport', and absolutely nothing about why that's a good idea. Everyone was expected to do the same thing with no consideration for ability, disability, or motivation. Kids were punished with detentions for…

I'd add that not only were we not taught about health benefits in PE classes, the punishment for non-participation was not only detention but also potentially failing the entire grade. I ended up dropping out in my first year of high school due to a culmination of similar issues. I loved and still love learning, but my school was not an environment for learning. It was an environment for teaching rigid obedience to authority, and nothing more.

My particular favorite thing to rant about is how, on the first day, I was held in detention for the entire day and made to skip the introduction to my classes because I unknowingly wore the wrong shade of blue for the dress code. Like the middle school in the same district, the dress code required a white, red, or blue polo (FUCK YEAH AMERICA!!!!), but the shade of blue from the middle school uniforms was not allowed, something I was never aware of but instead got arbitrarily punished for along with dozens of others, with my parent being made to buy a new set of uniform shirts after school.

It is no wonder that the US is in a state of decline given how horrid the schooling is. I can't imagine a worse environment for stifling intellectual curiosity than the one I was in.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#145

Post by delusional »

onion2k wrote: post #10

If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spo…

I know systems thinking, and am in favor of a version of these types of legislation. Give me your best argument from systems thinking, and I'll give you a thoughtful reply.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#146

Post by g42gregory »

stymaar wrote: post #100
onion2k wrote: post #10

If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spo…

“Age verification” isn't a problem in itself, the problem is how it's done. They could issue a physical id card with a cryptographic chip and do the age verification in a zero-knowledge fashion and it would be perfectly fine. The problem is the lack of thinking about the solution and just handwaving “age verification” as a political posture, which is why we end up with half-baked systems.

"Age verification" is designed to attribute your identity to your online presence. As such, it's done just right.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#147

Post by Telaneo »

bluegatty wrote: post #109
dv_dt wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social media age verification is like none of those - social media is the modern public square and age verification is asking everybody to show their papers before participating in free speech in the public. It will have a chilling effect on free speech and will be a tool for authoritarian control

Your local library has age and ID requirements. Your local 'town square' has 'some rules'. Parents are entirely able to overcome any of this if they so choose - including feeding their kids alcohol, guns etc. - and so the freedom does materially exist. Social Media isn't a place for free expression - it's mostly toxic - like exposing your children to the most vile, inauthentic people. The more genteel places, frankly…

> Your local library has age and ID requirements.

It literally doesn't (at least not if I don't intend to borrow a book and take it home; if I stay there and read, I can do so without any ID. I only need ID to get a library card, and I don't need that to enter and read a book).

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#148

Post by monssooon »

beezlewax wrote: post #138
roenxi wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness, the evidence is that people already pretty firmly against things like chat control and the will to push it through tends to come from the political circles more than popular belief it is a good idea. I expect that if the measure itself went to a general vote, the majority would be against it once they have to deal with a specific proposal. It takes repeated pushes by the authoritarians looking for an opp…

I emailed my local TD minister in Ireland about the inherent dangers of chat control. They had some lacky respond with an email that framed the conversation in a way that made it look like I was interested in the illegal content and not privacy/control or nefarious future governments.

This is what I fear the most. It is gas lighting and just manipulation. The idea of privacy will become associated with crime.

Further down the line technical solutions that are private will become illegal and in general not being pro survailance will get you in trouble

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#149

Post by tompagenet2 »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #81
zarzavat wrote: post #19

I don't like age verification. However I'm not concerned about it. The internet needs new spaces that are more decentralized and less in bed with governments. We already lost our freedom when we agreed to move from IRC to Discord, from phpBB to Reddit, etc. The teenagers who are blocked from mainstream social media will deliver us new free online spaces that are better than what they're blocked from.

Nope, they just break the law: https://www.bmj.com/content/393/bmj-2026-363695 > Conclusions: Despite the intent of the Social Media Minimum Age Act 2024 to delay access to social media platforms and reduce the potential for online harms, little evidence was found of immediate substantive reductions in reported social media use by adolescents under 16 years. We are training teenagers that laws are stupid and can be c…

The law doesn't make it a crime for children to access social media, but for the companies that provided it to allow that child to access it.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#150

Post by simondotau »

hparadiz wrote: post #110
simondotau wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A poor analogy. The public square has never been properly anonymous. If you start saying things which contravene laws or the rights of others, the police have been able to capture you and unmask your identity, if concealed.

People publish entire books anonymously.

Yes, and plenty of people have spoken in the public square anonymously too, because the police didn't feel the need to arrest them.

Publishing a book anonymously in the public square still means someone has to physically manufacture it, distribute it, convince you to read it, and pay for all of this. All these steps are subject to interdiction by the police.

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