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Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

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Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#131

Post by beezlewax »

palata wrote: post #127
onion2k wrote: post #10

If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spo…

> If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. What about climate change and the current mass extinction?

Yes those might be slightly more iimportant.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#132

Post by darkwater »

shevy-java wrote: post #83
RachelF wrote: post #41

Age verification is just one part of this crackdown. Device attestation is another - making sure you're using an unmodified government approved operating system and apps linked to your ID.

> making sure you're using an unmodified government approved operating system Will be interesting to see if this leads to more Linux systems being deployed. Then again with systemd supporting age sniffing ( https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954 ), evading this becomes harder and harder.

Evading what exactly? If the age verification is a flag sent by the OS and you are the OS administrator, you can do whatever you want.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#133

Post by mdp2021 »

stymaar wrote: post #100
onion2k wrote: post #10

If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spo…

“Age verification” isn't a problem in itself, the problem is how it's done. They could issue a physical id card with a cryptographic chip and do the age verification in a zero-knowledge fashion and it would be perfectly fine. The problem is the lack of thinking about the solution and just handwaving “age verification” as a political posture, which is why we end up with half-baked systems.

> and it would be perfectly fine

Unless a tiny chance exists that some system in the middle is not secure. Then you have the problem of those who orient their acceptance to the "oh well" shrug, and then systemic faults get downplayed by default. (Edit: I re-read and notice 'half-baked systems': seemingly, we agree.)

> as a political posture

Which is the core problem of masses accepting pseudo-heartly and not-brainy unacceptable figures. And again, systemic faults incarnated as administrations get downplayed by default.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#134

Post by mawadev »

aucisson_masque wrote: post #119

If I say something illegal during a meeting, people will notice it and will report it to the police. Then I may get arrested or fined. Why should it be different on the internet ? Provided we live in countries where freedom of speech is enacted. Of course in Russia or china it's different but surely they already have tools like that.

What if your phone listens to you all the time so it can detect "ok google" or "alexa" 24/7 but you happen to say something illegal with your device ID?

What if you brain storm a book/plot idea with a friend aloud and moments later the police knocks on your door because some system said you are about to commit a crime?

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#135

Post by dv_dt »

bluegatty wrote: post #123
dv_dt wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the solution for criminals in the public is for everybody to show their papers walking into a public square? It is not, we have requirements for police process like warrants and a process for determining the requirements for urgent conditions of arrest.

No, obviously not, and this is a completely glib argument. Who is suggesting people 'show their papers' to go into a public square? Literally nobody. It really demonstrates how bad the analogy is - so much so that it's not even analogy. The 'social controls' on the 'public square' are limited by a few laws (aka directed violence) but apart from that you can say as you like, kids can as well - it's where parents can b…

The science for age bans on social media is weak at best. There were pretty much terrible studies done during Covid and did not attribute all sorts of uncertainty going on at the same time.

If the point were to improve on the mental health of kids there are countless underfunded public programs. Especially in the US, social support programs like food, healthcare basic and mental, actual physical public spaces for kids, arts in curriculum, etc.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#136

Post by simondotau »

dv_dt wrote: post #111
simondotau wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A poor analogy. The public square has never been properly anonymous. If you start saying things which contravene laws or the rights of others, the police have been able to capture you and unmask your identity, if concealed.

So the solution for criminals in the public is for everybody to show their papers walking into a public square? It is not, we have requirements for police process like warrants and a process for determining the requirements for urgent conditions of arrest.

If that’s how you interpreted my post, I can only hypothesis that you didn’t read it. I can’t think of another explanation.

I actually like the traditional public square model: you have anonymity most of the time, but it’s not some absolute shield you can abuse to be an obnoxious prick. The police can intervene, but the intervention happens in the public square too.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#137

Post by hdgvhicv »

CalRobert wrote: post #113
vasco wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seemed unlikely to me that cookie banners would be a thing across the whole internet if nothing else because no website operators would put them in. How wrong was I. All they need to do is popularize the idea of "if your website doesn't do X, it'll place lower on google" and people will do anything. My websites still don't have cookie banners and the police still hasn't come to my house. And the websites uses cook…

Ironically 99% of them don’t meet legal requirements. They serve no purpose.

The purpose is to make people think laws like gdpr are bad for people, rather than bad for the surveillance industry.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#138

Post by beezlewax »

roenxi wrote: post #29
onion2k wrote: post #10

If we taught systems thinking in schools things like internet age verification would never get past being an idea on the back of a napkin. People struggle to consider the second-, third-, and nth-order effects of anything so asking them to consider what else might happen if we bring in laws and technical mechanisms to 'protect the children' is unfortunately too a big leap for a lot of them. Most people are bad at spo…

In fairness, the evidence is that people already pretty firmly against things like chat control and the will to push it through tends to come from the political circles more than popular belief it is a good idea. I expect that if the measure itself went to a general vote, the majority would be against it once they have to deal with a specific proposal. It takes repeated pushes by the authoritarians looking for an opp…

I emailed my local TD minister in Ireland about the inherent dangers of chat control. They had some lacky respond with an email that framed the conversation in a way that made it look like I was interested in the illegal content and not privacy/control or nefarious future governments.

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#139

Post by kelseyfrog »

mawadev wrote: post #134
aucisson_masque wrote: post #119

If I say something illegal during a meeting, people will notice it and will report it to the police. Then I may get arrested or fined. Why should it be different on the internet ? Provided we live in countries where freedom of speech is enacted. Of course in Russia or china it's different but surely they already have tools like that.

What if your phone listens to you all the time so it can detect "ok google" or "alexa" 24/7 but you happen to say something illegal with your device ID? What if you brain storm a book/plot idea with a friend aloud and moments later the police knocks on your door because some system said you are about to commit a crime?

What if your neuralink reports unacceptable thoughts to the police?

Re: Age verification is just a precursor to automated attribution of speech

#140

Post by hdgvhicv »

josteink wrote: post #47
watwut wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, social networks already made genocide happen. They they were instrumental in the curren winning march of fascism - in USA, in EU in Asia.

That’s a very dramatic take - and I dare say a counter-factual one too. Which actual genocide would you be talking about? I really don’t think people should water out words like that over what is essentially tiny political differences.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-46105934

Facebook has said it agrees with a report that found it had failed to prevent its platform being used to "incite offline violence" in Myanmar. The independent report, commissioned by Facebook, said the platform had created an "enabling environment" for the proliferation of human rights abuse. It comes after widespread violence against the Rohingya minority which the UN has said may amount to genocide.

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