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Data centers trigger voter backlash

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Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#261

Post by miiiiiike »

watwut wrote: post #252
miiiiiike wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I know why they’re angry. Hell, I don’t even use gen AI, I still think it’s unreliable junk. However, most of the things that the people in my community are concerned about don’t apply to our region specifically. We’re actually in a position to benefit GREATLY. It’s useful to have that conversation.

What is the benefit? They provide no jobs and demand tax cuts.

Property taxes. Construction jobs. The land is unused and already had tax incentives. Remember, tax incentives don’t eliminate taxes, they just reduce them for a period of time to encourage development.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#262

Post by miiiiiike »

micro2588 wrote: post #258
miiiiiike wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m only talking about my local area. I’m not defending the Colossus sites. I don’t live near them.

It is much more than the Colossus sites, I would look at the capacity additions in the regional grids you are apart of and what is being funded to meet these increases in demand from data centers. The majority of it is natural gas generation and a sizeable but minority amount of battery storage. Just outbidding people for a relatively fixed amount of clean nuclear ignores the second order effects of adding large load…

Again, I’m talking about my region. We have a nuclear generating station 16 miles from the proposed site of the data center. That station sells 80-85% of the power generated wholesale to other parts of the state and grids regionally.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#263

Post by oblio »

miiiiiike wrote: post #171
lelandfe wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you have some measure of empathy for their position? I’m sure you certainly did in 08, as people lost their homes. I think it’s a topic that’s scary to many and this datacenter-to-be, or the local banker, just happens to be what they can easily protest.

2008 is apples vs oranges. The proposed data center site is across the street from the dump, just south of the airport. It’s zoned for heavy industrial use. Literally anything that they could build there other than a data center would have a greater negative impact on the environment and a far less positive economic impact. I could build a concrete crushing plant there.

Most other things they could build there could create a lot more local jobs.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#264

Post by watwut »

godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #108
pesus wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are trying to take on the hyperscalers why not push for UBI vs trying to stop the buildout? Is the former really that much more difficult than the latter? I'm really not trying to be rude, but have you followed US politics or history at all? Is this a serious question? Yes, it is incomprehensibly harder to fundamentally change the fabric and structure of society, especially in a way that involves giving "fre…

I'm really not trying to be rude, but have you followed US politics or history at all? Is this a serious question? Trying to control something by merely protecting your own backyard never works. America has reinvented its own social contract many times, it's why we are still here 250 years later. What side would you have been on in the lead up to the civil war? The nothing ever happens side? Or civil rights? Or the N…

> it's why we are still here 250 years later

Like dude, 250 years is not exactly impressive amount of time.

Also AI side is not civil rights side. Nor new deal side. And it is dubious which side it would take in WWII. (We know grok side - nazi, but others)

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#265

Post by watwut »

sokoloff wrote: post #209
stvltvs wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should be happy with a disproportionate amount of wealth going to rent seekers because they let us buy their goods and work in their companies making them even wealthier? The wealthy always skew the rules to favor themselves, e.g. US capital gains being taxed at a lower rate than labor. The global standard of living has been going up but could be even higher if wealth was distributed more justly.

People who create wealth for society by inventing and providing goods and services that others find valuable enough to buy are, by definition, not rent seeking when they do those things. If you have complaints against rent seekers, that’s fine, but that’s not against “labor saving innovations” and it would probably serve you well to not confuse them, so you don’t inadvertently object to life-improving inventions.

> inventing and providing goods and services that others find valuable enough to buy

Are not getting rich. They get lower and middle class salaries.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#266

Post by miiiiiike »

cdrnsf wrote: post #14

Nothing this technology offers is, to me, worth the noise pollution or increase in water and electricity rates.

Data centers do more than AI. And you won’t defeat AI by killing data center proposals. The technology will succeed or fail on its own. We’ll find out in about 5 years.

Remember how “everyone” said all trucks will be self-driving in 10 years… 15 years ago?

There are something like 1200 data center proposals cross the US. How many of those will actually be built? How many are being proposed by speculators with no experience building or operating data centers? I have a feeling the number that will actually be built is significantly less that 1200.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#267

Post by acdha »

xvedejas wrote: post #69
acdha wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we don’t correctly price pollution: it’d be one thing if this boom meant acres of solar panels and wind turbines getting greenlit but in practice it means keeping some dirty plants online and building out new pollution capacity, sometimes completely illegally like what happened in Memphis. All of this would go away overnight if we taxed carbon.

Isn't most new capacity solar these days?

New is heavily solar, yes, but there’s still too much natural gas and the administration is deeply committed to returning the investment fossil fuel companies made in the president’s campaign so I wouldn’t bet on that continuing.

What’s more of a concern is coal being kept online just for data centers. Even if the national average drops, that’s a regional health risk where it happens.

https://www.powermag.com/power-demand-from-data-centers-keep...

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=67205

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#268

Post by xienze »

BigTTYGothGF wrote: post #73
cjfd wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can talk about UBI if you want to appear nice but people on UBI are also rather useless. Of course the real solution to the problem will be the change of carbon based life into silicon based life and the extermination of the former kind of life. Which is not the elected representatives problem if it happens to happen more than 4 years into the future.

> people on UBI are also rather useless UBI is going to get us a lot more artists of all kinds.

We currently have a not-insignificant population living the UBI dream. No job, section 8 housing, food stamps, free healthcare via going to the emergency room for everything and not simply not paying, as well as other social programs.

What great art are these folks producing since they aren't burdened by having to work to survive? Mumble rap on Soundcloud? Shitty graffiti on every building?

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#269

Post by Espressosaurus »

ok123456 wrote: post #211
teravor wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they are only releasing open weight models to damage the closed off US AI corpos. while the next GLM model may get a similar open release, I doubt the one after that will.

Or maybe they have different incentives and don't see providing an inference as a service for the entire world as a viable business model. Open source isn't a zero-sum game.

Look at which models are getting open-weights vs. which ones aren't.

That tap can be shut off at any time and it's already being shut off for their biggest models.

Re: Data centers trigger voter backlash

#270

Post by micro2588 »

miiiiiike wrote: post #262
micro2588 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is much more than the Colossus sites, I would look at the capacity additions in the regional grids you are apart of and what is being funded to meet these increases in demand from data centers. The majority of it is natural gas generation and a sizeable but minority amount of battery storage. Just outbidding people for a relatively fixed amount of clean nuclear ignores the second order effects of adding large load…

Again, I’m talking about my region. We have a nuclear generating station 16 miles from the proposed site of the data center. That station sells 80-85% of the power generated wholesale to other parts of the state and grids regionally.

The nuclear generating station is part of a larger system. Say you build enough data centers in your local area to use up all the station power so that 80% is no longer exported, what is getting built somewhere else to make up for that missing generation the data centers now use? Its not new nuclear. When you add data center load to a grid how the additional generation is supplied is really what matters in terms of impacts.
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