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An entire Herculaneum scroll has been read for the first time

scrollprize.org

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Re: An entire Herculaneum scroll has been read for the first time

#281

Post by ricardobayes »

nbardy wrote: post #264
zzyzxd wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already learned to use light and fire to transfer data over long distance. How much difference is there between beacon fire and fiber optic cable? But I think they would be more surprised by how we managed to invent things like social media and AI, which destroy our brain. Ancient societies valued wisdom much more than us and were much more careful when introducing new technologies. It was fascinating for me to…

The first bit was interesting and then you flipped right to generic cynicism. They would be impressed with our technology even if it has downsides. Wisdom is knowing humans and technology and imperfect tools.

What good is something that only looks good from afar? Most new tech is exactly that, for posturing to gain shareholder value - very few innovation in actually useful things that make peoples lives better. It's all self-serving, to consume more and get people hooked on digital experiences.

Re: An entire Herculaneum scroll has been read for the first time

#282

Post by pestatije »

wolfi1 wrote: post #248
GeoAtreides wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aristotle's second book of Poetics, of course.

we already know that a blind Italian monk burnt it to ashes, at least, that's what Eco wrote and he was a learned scholar

but that was a copy

Re: An entire Herculaneum scroll has been read for the first time

#283

Post by spelufo »

So cool! Congratulations to the team. When scroll 4 (PHerc 1667) was first published, it was clear that the sheets were less compressed than the first two scrolls, so it would be easier to segment the surface. However, the whole surface looked similar to what the ink had looked like in scroll 1 where letters were first discovered.

But the team persevered and scanned at higher resolutions and eventually found letters: https://scrollprize.substack.com/p/finallyletters-in-scroll-...

Now they've managed to bring out the ink across the whole scroll. Truly inspiring, can't wait to read up on how they did it.

Re: An entire Herculaneum scroll has been read for the first time

#284

Post by Someone »

lisper wrote: post #223
codeulike wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ancient writers were more imaginative than you think. Right, but imagination starts from what is known, so Vera Historia has wars, journeys, whales and gods. A whirlwind takes them to the moon, and so on. But it would have been very hard for them to imagine the direction that _technology_ would go. That writing (scrolls and ink) could expand into something like the internet and smartphones. They could have imagined l…

> it would have been very hard for them to imagine the direction that _technology_ would go. That writing (scrolls and ink) could expand into something like the internet and smartphones Our reality has already vastly surpassed main stream sci fi of only fifty years ago. > could there be something two thousand years from now that is practically unimaginable to us? It's less likely because to be unimaginable it would h…

> Our reality has already vastly surpassed main stream sci fi of only fifty years ago.

Definitely not in every aspect. Star Trek is almost 60 years old and featured interstellar space travel and the Tricorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricorder).

The Jetsons are even older and featured flying cars and household robots. Also, George Jetson had a two-day, one hour a day workweek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jetsons#Premise)

Re: An entire Herculaneum scroll has been read for the first time

#285

Post by TeMPOraL »

snickerbockers wrote: post #273
codeulike wrote: post #173

Lets reflect on Aristocreon, in about 200 BC, putting their thoughts down on a scroll. They would be aware that the scroll might be kept in a library for some time. Maybe they could have imagined it surviving for 300 years. But they never would have imagined that in 300 years a volcano might destroy the scroll, but in some way preserve it. And then that nearly two thousand years later future humans with machines made…

Im sure that recovering fragments of text from 2000 year old charred embers would be absolutely incredible to them, but in general the ability to preserve books for thousands of years would not. Before the Gutenberg press, scribes were surprisingly efficient at copying manuscripts by hand. For many of the most significant works of the ancient world the oldest surviving manuscript was written hundreds or even thousand…

That's true, but then it's also a lot like comparing sex to cryonics.

The scribes were actively copying the books, this is a continuous preservation process that's familiar to everyone, it's the same thing that talking about the bees and the birds covers. It requires expending continuous effort (and funding), and planning ahead. It's toil. And, as you noted in your last sentence, it not only allows for errors, it affords errors. Translation is an act of interpretation.

In contrast, recovering text from 2000 year old charred embers is cultural equivalent of resurrection. It's like finding an ancient human frozen in a block of ice/ancient cryopod, and thawing them - which itself is a scientifically plausible subset of bringing back the dead.

I'm not sure what analogies would be best to explain that to people from 2000 years ago. Food preservation? Or hoping they can conceptualize thawing a person who fell into an icy lake indefinite amount of years earlier?

Re: An entire Herculaneum scroll has been read for the first time

#288

Post by Tepix »

What if we want to put something on paper today for it to survive as long as possible?

1-minute research:

Paper: 100% cotton rag or linen rag paper with alkaline reserve. Acid-free and lignin-free.

Ink: Genuine carbon ink applied with a classic dip pen.

Storage: ISO 16245 archival box, Less than 15°C, 30-50% humidity, dark, no oxygen exchange. Always store horizontally. Wear white 100% cotton gloves.

Printing: If you want to print instead of hand-write: Piezography carbon printing or pigment-based inks used by professional desktop photo printers, matte black or photo black ink, printed on digital Fine Art Archival Paper.

Place a single sheet of archival-grade tissue paper or glassine paper between every single page of your document

I think the key is to write something interesting that's worth preserving. That may be the most difficult part.

Any improvements beyond this?

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