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Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

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Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#171

Post by Martinussen »

thunderbird120 wrote: post #162
RandomLensman wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Table on page 10: https://www.boeckler.de/data/downloads/IMK/FMM%20Konferenz%2... Not looking at households or disposable income here but at hourly wages.

I see. That paper is looking a median income from a PPP perspective but without accounting for taxes and transfers, which is a tiny bit unorthodox in this exact context which tries to get into the weeds slightly more than just standard PPP adjusted GDP per-capita or something like that. It's valid statistically, but typically if you're trying to adjust for cost of living it makes a lot of sense to use the amount of a…

You'd similarly factor in comparable medical insurance/ avg. out of pocket medical expenses, taxes etc. for a median income earner the other side then, right? At median income, does that really tilt the scales much when all is said and done?

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#172

Post by tialaramex »

tovej wrote: post #151
mytailorisrich wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those legal protections are easily eroded without unions. That's very clearly not true based on the situation in Western Europe, in fact legal rights tend to keep increasing even when union membership is decreasing (e.g. UK, France). As said, jobs and society as a whole have evolved and noone can be elected in government by promising to take away important protections, what they can be elected on is promising to cu…

I just gave you an example. How can you say it is "very clearly not true". You would have to somehow disprove the reality of what has already happened in order to make that statement

Facts-aren't-True people make up a truth they like and then any inconvenient facts can be disregarded because facts-aren't-true.

It's a really popular ideology - it doesn't have any actual successes but since its followers don't believe facts are true the fact it's a dead end doesn't matter to them.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#173

Post by shit_game »

lucumo wrote: post #140
shit_game wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rising tide lifts all boats. Denying people agency and power in their negotiation by claiming they are "not as good as someone else" is antithetical to the struggle of labor - work deserves to be compensated fairly. >When I worked at a unionized place I was blocked from an opportunity my employer offered me because it was better than what the standard negotiated terms were Your union blocked this because your emp…

> Your union blocked this because your employer was trying to break your unions negotiating power by separating your interests from the collective workforce. Be that as it may, for this specific employee the union was a negative. In effect, he is asked to sacrifice for the collective. It's understandable that that's acceptable to the collective, but it's also not hard to see why the sacrifice wouldn't like that. > Th…

Representation under a union is voluntary, and if an employee doesn't wish to be represented by that union, they may quit. I'm sure there are some other means of avoiding union representation in unionized workplaces in the US, but I don't know the speciics of them. This is generally called strikebreaking, though the act of working with a company outside of its unionized workforce isn't strongly defined outside the terms of a labor strike. Similarly to agreeing to the employment contract, agreeing to the union contract is binding and one ought to agree to its terms, which may be vague enough to state things such as "advancement in career title and duties may be subject to discretion of the union", or other similar terms. If you don't want to be represented by a union, you should choose not to be.

The tide is a local water level; every boat on the water is lifted by the tide. A swell or wave may lift one boat, regardless of tide.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#174

Post by DrBazza »

Frieren wrote: post #56

There is no reason for any employee to not search for unionization. It is your right and it is in your best interest. Good for them.

In a jobs market place of wide choice, unionization is unnecessary. The tech job pool spans multiple industries, so if your employer is treating you poorly, leave.

In a jobs market where there are few employers, maybe unionize, because those employers are essentially a monopsony. Hence, in the UK, the NHS, teaching, and public transport, where the employer is the Government, they're heavily unionized.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#175

Post by DrBazza »

bArray wrote: post #93
Frieren wrote: post #56

There is no reason for any employee to not search for unionization. It is your right and it is in your best interest. Good for them.

The only real reason for me in the UK to join a union would be for legal representation, otherwise I can represent my own interests. At least here in the UK our unions are heavily involved in politics - which is a massive issue. Currently, the leadership of the unions and the people in them are literally opposite sides of the political spectrum.

The Labour party was founded by unions, so it's no surprise they're still completely beholden to them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Labour_Party_(U...

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#176

Post by Martinussen »

throwaway93135 wrote: post #125
RandomLensman wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hourly wages in Germany are not that different from the US. Depends a bit on how exactly to compare - nominal, PPP, net/gross, etc.: e.g., average nominal is about 10% higher in the US, real median is higher in Germnay, ...

Overlooking that we are comparing the richest EU state to all 50 US states, doesn't that further the point that having unions is are at best uninfluential.

Far from the richest by capita, average income, PPP average income, mean/median household wealth, etc., which feels like what we're actually talking about here. A lot of countries in the EU/Europe that would make the US look far worse, no?

Either way, no, if unions don't reduce how much people make and provide stronger worker's rights, protection from corporate abuse, workplace safety, collective bargaining for things like holidays, you can think it doesn't change your take-home at all and pretty undeniably see the benefits. How many weeks of legally mandated paid time off do you get, and how many additional days do you get on top of that as a median worker in the US? :b

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#177

Post by DrBazza »

shit_game wrote: post #121
changoplatanero wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s in the collective best interest may not match with what’s in the individual best interest. Perhaps unions are more likely to be in the self interest of the below average employees, the ones with no negotiating power. The best school teachers are almost certainly being held back by their unions and the worst ones are getting a free pass. When I worked at a unionized place I was blocked from an opportunity my em…

The rising tide lifts all boats. Denying people agency and power in their negotiation by claiming they are "not as good as someone else" is antithetical to the struggle of labor - work deserves to be compensated fairly. >When I worked at a unionized place I was blocked from an opportunity my employer offered me because it was better than what the standard negotiated terms were Your union blocked this because your emp…

The reverse is true. Unionization of the UK car industry in the 1970s, more than played its part in the collapse of the UK car industry, for example:

> The company became an infamous example of the industrial turmoil that plagued the United Kingdom in the 1970s. Action by unions frequently crippled BL manufacturing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Leyland#1975%E2%80%931...

'work deserves to be compensated fairly' - are you talking about Marx's 'labour theory of value'? Even though Marx himself criticised it?

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#178

Post by thunderbird120 »

Martinussen wrote: post #171
thunderbird120 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. That paper is looking a median income from a PPP perspective but without accounting for taxes and transfers, which is a tiny bit unorthodox in this exact context which tries to get into the weeds slightly more than just standard PPP adjusted GDP per-capita or something like that. It's valid statistically, but typically if you're trying to adjust for cost of living it makes a lot of sense to use the amount of a…

You'd similarly factor in comparable medical insurance/ avg. out of pocket medical expenses, taxes etc. for a median income earner the other side then, right? At median income, does that really tilt the scales much when all is said and done?

Medical expenses would be a combination of cost of insurance / treatment (PPP relevant) and government transfers in a country with partially or fully public healthcare, which is why it's so important to do both.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#180

Post by eru »

one33seven wrote: post #138
lucumo wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no reason for any employee to not search for unionization. That's a very theoretical view. (As most absolutes are.) Unions and rules around unions can be very different depending on locality, industry and other specifics. The power and benefits a union gives a specific employee may not outweigh the cost they impose on that specific employee. Furthermore, unions are organizations. They have their own intern…

So your point is, you have to look for a good union? Fully agreed!

The top level command suggested that any unionisation is good. Even with a terrible union.
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