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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#731

Post by port11 »

Saline9515 wrote: post #682
pintxo wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It exists, it is called "UG", minimum capital 1€. You have to increase capital up to at least 25k though, out of your annual profits.

Why have a different category that sounds like "unserious" to german people? I can see people in procurement departments say "oh no, we don't deal with UG".

You’ll find that many people don’t have 25k€ to invest in initial capital of a business, but that are perfectly capable of running a business regardless. 5k€ is fair for plenty of endeavours, and more should be required for riskier businesses.

People seeing a GmbH as more serious is just a cultural aspect, I’d say.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#732

Post by ivankra »

ghusto wrote: post #666
nish1500 wrote: post #104

I've run a tech business on three continents, and nothing comes close to the Kafkaesque labyrinth of the German world. Everything is unbelievably complicated and over-engineered, and every layer is immune to change. Every rule was rational when it was added, and now everyone has a financial stake in continued complexity. The German notary is the highest-paid notary in the world, and the highest-earning professional i…

> You were never supposed to incorporate a company. You were supposed to get a job at Volkswagen. This is it. They can't fathom a world in which people do their own thing. What gives me pause for thought though, is the fact that the German economy does comparitively well within the EU.

> German economy does comparitively well within the EU.

That's well in the past. It's at the bottom in the EU by GDP growth now, and little hope for a come back.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#733

Post by BlueTemplar »

nekusar wrote: post #665
Zak wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to build reliable software has existed for a long time. Commercial airlines make heavy use of it, and serious failures are vanishingly rare. The problem is building software to those standards of reliability is expensive and slow. Consumer software never justifies it. Business software rarely does. If you want me to accept liability for the consequences of bugs in code I write, I'm giving you a schedule f…

And your mindset is the problem. It does not need 100% error free anything. Hell, our food and goods we buy has error rates. Recalls, replacements, etc. Mistakes happen. Liability is about taking responsibility for your stuff you emit. And the fact that software companies are getting worse shows me that there isn't any sort of maturity in this industry. You can't even buy a fucking game without it being encrusted in…

> You can't even buy a fucking game without it being encrusted in anti-user DRM.

You very much can. And notably, exceptions that do use it tend to be from giant public corporations.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#734

Post by WA »

Aachen wrote: post #485
account42 wrote: post #281

> “No,” said the lawyer. German company names have to be distinctive, and “Plenty” is a plain English word. Berlin would reject it. Good.

Say that to Tempo! It's like hoover or ipad, a word people use in place of the real product name, and no matter which brand the product is actually made by (a no-brand piece of paper is still referred to as Tempo) It they're allowed to trade as Tempo in Germany, why isn't a company allowed to be called Plenty? I agree it would be nicer if you couldn't hijack a normal word in the hopes it does well enough that people…

Company names != brand names. Brand names != registered trademarks.

They could probably call it "Plenty Apps GmbH" and that would be fine.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#735

Post by veeti »

nonethewiser wrote: post #457
mplappert wrote: post #297

There’s a lot of confusion here: - There is no double taxation if you just pay yourself a salary (since it’s a normal business expense). If you want to take money out of the company flexibly, a GmbH is the wrong structure. - I’ve never heard of anybody doing an UG/GmbH + KG to get started. This is highly unusual. Most people either do just a simple UG or maybe they set up a holding structure with two separate GmbH /…

You don’t think the barrier to entry is a valid criticism?

When I saw "600 comments" I knew this thread would be full of Germans falling over each other, explaining how this is ackshually the God given right system and you are very suspicious for wanting to conduct business or something. Was not disappointed.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#736

Post by ExpertAdvisor01 »

notpushkin wrote: post #336
ma2kx wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that depends of the company's legal form. If you have an "AG" or "GmbH" you get double taxed anyway, one time the company and than again your salary. So if you have an Estonian equevilant of a GmbH/AG your company will get taxed by Estonia and your salary by Germany. The Estonian E-Residency Website at least confirms my assumption but in case of Germany I could be very well wrong of course... https://www.…

> So if you have an Estonian equevilant of a GmbH/AG your company will get taxed by Estonia and your salary by Germany Estonian CIT is 0%. If you pay dividends (which is not required), or if you pay director’s salary (optional if you’re a one-man company without a ton of admin), those will be taxed in Estonia. If you only pay yourself for your actual services – no taxes in Estonia. Germany might tax your Estonian com…

Estonia isn't 0% cit . Tax is just deferred until distribution.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#737

Post by hypendev »

jojomodding wrote: post #577
JanSt wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if you don't handle this correctly you become personally liable

Probably criminally liable for bankruptcy as well. At least in Germany (where I am vaguely familiar with the law) you lose bankruptcy protection for debts you take on that are knowingly not covered by existing assets or expected future income. This is usually hard to prove, but if your assets are 0 and there was never a viable plan all along they'll likely found you guilty. This means you become personally liable to…

Might be that German law covers for such cases, but at that point, I'd expect then the regulations and annoyances about starting a company be more high trust.

In our EU member country, one can do this without penalty, for years - and people have been abusing it consistently with only rare persecutions.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#738

Post by lnsru »

thomas-skowron wrote: post #261
lnsru wrote: post #19

I am an electrician. Got my certification done with Handwerkskammer, went to the city hall, registered my company and filled online form rejecting the option with VAT number since all my clients are in greater Munich area. Same path could be chosen with VAT number. Ranting about choosing most complex business form and having no money for a consultant is not adequate in my eyes. Btw I am always liable as electrician (…

> Btw I am always liable as electrician (since it is dangerous) and can’t hide behind limited liability company in Germany. Under some circumstances you can be held liable through a GmbH, but not generally speaking. > rejecting the option with VAT number Means you are planning to run a small business (making less than minimum wage on a yearly basis), also you are opting out of Vorsteuerabzug. Anyone that wants to liv…

I think the Kleinunternehmer ruling is great in Germany to start something small. With growth VAT comes automatically. But hiring consultants with proper revenue isn’t big deal anymore.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#740

Post by tpm »

margalabargala wrote: post #652
nradov wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. Strong or weak has nothing to do with it. If you want to be protected then don't do business with undercapitalized counterparties. Everyone can make their own decision on acceptable level of financial risk. It's stupid for governments to dictate this.

How do you know if your counterpart is undercapitalized, though?

Look up the business registry, debt registry etc., it should be all there, at least it is in our country.
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