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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#651

Post by hyhatqtv »

_fat_santa wrote: post #276
WarmWash wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are jealous of the US system where you can create an LLC in one hour for $200, and by the next day be doing business with all your personal assets isolated.

The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee. The US will never be able to match the EU's consumer and employee protections and the EU will never be able to match the US's ease of doing business, because to have one you have to fundamentally give in on the other. Depending on who you ask, one system is wildly better than the other, but at the e…

> the EU system

Well in this specific case there is no such thing. Laws and regulations vary wildly and there are countries in the EU where you can register a company almost immediately at low cost.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#652

Post by margalabargala »

nradov wrote: post #635
t0mas88 wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the American viewpoint, right of the strongest, sue if they wronged you. European systems typically have a different philosophy where the counterparties are more protected. It's expressed in stronger consumer protection laws, but also these German things where you can't start a GmbH/LLC with zero capital and wish the counterparties good luck suing you if you never pay them.

You're missing the point. Strong or weak has nothing to do with it. If you want to be protected then don't do business with undercapitalized counterparties. Everyone can make their own decision on acceptable level of financial risk. It's stupid for governments to dictate this.

How do you know if your counterpart is undercapitalized, though?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#653

Post by hyhatqtv »

watwut wrote: post #650
logifail wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee I disagree: the EU system broadly is there to support _the incumbants_ "Regulatory capture" is the less kind way to put it.

US system seems to facilitate quick creation of monopolies and then keeps them in power long term. There is quick competition, winner takes it all and then it is it forever.

There are plenty of similar “monopolies” in the EU they just value safely exploiting consumers more than rapid growth.

Regardless US tech monopolies are almost as dominant in the EU as in they are in the US”. At least local companies wouldn’t syphon money to a different continent and could be regulated

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#654

Post by valdiorn »

anonzzzies wrote: post #216
robtro wrote: post #65

Germany is one of the worst countries when it comes to bureaucracy nothing is fast here if you go the legal path and stay within the law (which is mostly for small people big players have different ways) and as you see everything costs a lot so if you are founding a pure online business do yourself a favor and incorporate somewhere else and if you still live in Germany look into licensing or subcontracting yourself t…

I do not know an EU or Asian country that doesn’t have a similar paperwork misery; I had a company in DE and in many others; you won’t survive in Spain as SL if you are small and follow the rules either. So literally no one does. No different in DE. We never got fined or even reprimanded. Largest fine in DE we got was for charging the wrong VAT for some items and that was not really that bad compared to all the tax b…

Setting up a business in the UK is a breeze. It takes 30 minutes, costs 20 quid and it's all done online. I'd go so far as to say the UK is the friendliest place in the world for small businesses (as long as you don't have a physical location, because business rates are incredibly regressive and backwards)

A friend of mine in Iceland literally just set up a UK ltd company today - I'm a shareholder, took 5 minutes to verify my identity - by linking it to my existing companies house account.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#655

Post by hyhatqtv »

throwaway-blaze wrote: post #545
sandcat_ wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not true. From mandatory refunds when selling online, to capped credit card fees, to longer warranties, the EU is clearly better for consumer rights. Some US businesses have realized that openly screwing your customers isn’t good business practice, but they’re somewhat of the exception I hear (and a lot of those companies offer the same policies, or better, in the EU, e.g. Costco) Apple is another good example…

And all of Apple's products are much more expensive in the EU. In Austria, a MacBook Air starts at EUR1199, and the same device starts at USD1099. At today's exchange rate, that European device costs USD1360, or nearly 20% more. We can argue about the consumer friendliness of the regulations in the EU but they also add demonstrably to the cost of tech products (and likely other categories).

Apple.com like all retailers in the US don’t include sales taxes in the listed price while in Europe ~20% VAT is included.

So if you bother comparing apples to apples that MacBook starts at around $1,145 in Germany… if you actually want that 1 extra year of warranty and get Apple Care in the US it actually becomes cheaper in Europe

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#656

Post by RamblingCTO »

Archelaos wrote: post #195

The authors claim that he spent "9,600 euros to start a company" is misleading. Since he wants to reduce his liabiliy and therefore the risk of his customers as much as possible, he opted for a complex solution that involved founding two joined companies. In addition, he counted 2,000 € of shared capital as an expense, which it isn't. He did not opt for a "cheap" UG which requires no up-front capital, because of its…

I founded a UG in december for 250€ (beglaubigt.de) + 180€ (notary but w/ Mustervertrag) + 150€ (round about, not a 100% sure, Handelsregister) and 35€ Gewerbeanmeldung (which isn't even tied to founding the company itself relly). Still waiting for my UStID tho. supposedly exists since january, but they aren't able to deliver the letter or tell me on the phone ...

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#657

Post by notpushkin »

sparkling wrote: post #576
notpushkin wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really need a VAT ID though? There is the “reverse charge” mechanism, which IIRC you can use until you sell a lot in any given country. (IANAL)

Both parties having a VAT ID is actually a requirement to be able to use reverse charge: https://vatdb.com/reverse-charge/

Okay, it’s way more complicated than I imagined then!

But if you’re not liable for VAT in a given EU country yet, I suppose you can then just skip it? There are some countries with low thresholds (like 15k € in Cyprus or 0 € in Belgium) but if you’re keep clear of those, do not cross thresholds anywhere, and are doing B2B only, you’re in the clear, right?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#658

Post by pintxo »

Saline9515 wrote: post #520
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

The problem here is that 25k€ is too little for some types of businesses (say, a bridge architect), and way too much for others (say, selling spice mixes online). I don't get the "seriousness" memes in Germany, which sound more about gatekeeping than anything else. Why not require 1M€? This is serious! More serious! Meanwhile, they have companies likes Wirecard that went under in a day after it discovered a "hole" of…

It exists, it is called "UG", minimum capital 1€. You have to increase capital up to at least 25k though, out of your annual profits.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#659

Post by niemandhier »

ExpertAdvisor01 wrote: post #128
niemandhier wrote: post #121

You can just buy a ready made GmbH. This costs about 28k€, 25k€ are deposited in the company. That is called Vorratsgmbh and takes very little time.

You still have to go to a notary and do paperwork to change the name of the company.

Does that really matter? Your name can be whatever until you really take off.

Point is: You can easily have a company in Germany in 24 h. An UG is affordable at about 4K and has limited liability. GmbH is a bit more fancye and hence more expensive.

Maybe file a trade mark for that name but I see no reason to actually change the name.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#660

Post by watwut »

hyhatqtv wrote: post #653
watwut wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US system seems to facilitate quick creation of monopolies and then keeps them in power long term. There is quick competition, winner takes it all and then it is it forever.

There are plenty of similar “monopolies” in the EU they just value safely exploiting consumers more than rapid growth. Regardless US tech monopolies are almost as dominant in the EU as in they are in the US”. At least local companies wouldn’t syphon money to a different continent and could be regulated

American monopolies are not much regulated, they are entirely above the law. The legal system heavily biased toward rich corporations.

I did not said europe does not have monopolies. I said America has "winner takes all" economy that systematically creates monopolies everywhere you look. It does not create competition, it creates what you call "incumbent".

Americans look down on markets where middle sized companies constanty fight for customers. Great company is the one that has say in goverment, cornered market and trying to make it comply to law is seen as attack.

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