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Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

reuters.com

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Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#351
post #69

Distillation is fundamentally impossible to protect against. All you can do is slow them down. Change my view. Eventually these Chinese companies will release some extension like Honey, which will sit on top real, non-Chinese clients and send everything to China anyway. It's over.

It's too late to prevent distillation of some capabilities, like writing code or finding vulnerabilities [1]. But an AI lab can continue to produce immense economic value without releasing the model publicly for potential distillation. For example, it could use a model solely in-house to develop therapeutics. Hopefully there's a future where others can access frontier models, but it's not neccessary if preventing pro…

My long-term prediction for the sector is that frontier models will be so expensive that they will only be available for grant-funded projects at research institutions, like supercomputer clusters were 25 years ago.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Information wants to be free" Anthropic profited from training its models on all kinds of copyrighted information, live by the sword, die by the sword... Their model weights, training data, training methods, etc are all going to leak to China over time. Nobody on a site named _Hacker_ news should be all that upset about this.

You’re mistaking the original term hacker, a tinkerer of systems, for the black hat variety.

black and white hat is relative. someone breaking into a state run database in a dictatorship and stealing documents that prove some opposition leader was murdered would be a black hat criminal if you ask their government. a hacker jailbreaking a phone to let people fix it without expensive official service is a black hat to the company. we should really switch to saying offensive and defensive or something else that doesnt come with moral implications. maybe lawful and chaotic.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#354
post #311

Here's what is happening: Chinese resellers are offering Claude tokens at 70-90% below official Anthropic API prices. They achieve this by reselling capacity from pooled Claude Max accounts, payments fraud, and also reselling the model output & reasoning chains to various Chinese labs. They are subsidizing model access in exchange for user logs and reasoning traces, which they then sell as training data, allowing the…

I’m surprised that instead of cutting them off Anthropic doesn’t just switch them to a lower quality, cheaper to models. That would seem more effective than simply shutting down the accounts. Keep them paying for junk.

That sounds like it would actually be fraud.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#355
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Anthropic has terms of service with more stipulations than just "you must pay and can use the service for any purpose"?

I'm sure all the artists and creators they stole from had stipulations too.

The artists had actual laws to protect them, not just vaguely enforceable terms of service. And look where that got them. I have zero empathy for the huge company getting a taste of their own medicine.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#356
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Anthropic has terms of service with more stipulations than just "you must pay and can use the service for any purpose"?

I'm sure all the artists and creators they stole from had stipulations too.

Anthropic paid one billion in a copyright settlement. That's a lot of money considering they never distributed the pirated books they trained on.

Nowadays they buy copies of books, train on them, and then destroy them.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#357

This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. I also learnt that Anthropic should get better at what they do if they want to compete. If not, somebody else will win. Or does this not apply to huge US corporations any more?

China aren't offering a cheaper solution. They are subsidizing an existing one (which is already subsidized) in order to gain foothold. The difference is that in the US subsidies come from VC, while OP implies subsidies come from the AI labs that buy the training data (which may as well also be VC backed, so just one extra hop). This isn't "the market working as intended", this is an exhaustion fight to the bottom wh…

> China aren't offering a cheaper solution. They are subsidizing an existing one (which is already subsidized) in order to gain foothold.

In my economics classes, we were told that (in a "free market" argument) the best thing to do if a subsidy is making something you want cheaper is to use it. You're getting your thing, and at a reduced cost.

(I'm not really replying to you per se, I'm curious how "free market" folks in these comments would respond to this.)

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what economics told me the free market was all about. Don't complain when US starts to play by the same rules China has been using for decades.

What is the implication here? Are you warning that US corporations might start doing something shady, like scraping the internet at large scale for training data? Or mass-dowloading pirated copies of books, completely ignoring copyright? I find it hard to imagine a future where US corporations have degraded to such a point.

Or building backdoor in to the physical servers sold around the world?

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already did and paid 1.5B https://authorsguild.org/advocacy/artificial-intelligence/wh...

That's a great cost-benefit ratio. Can you and I steal and do illegal things and pay the same cost?

Sure, but only if you get the same benefits

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#360

>The strike by Alibaba is described as a "distillation" effort, which Anthropic has said involves training a less capable model on the outputs of a stronger one. Claude used TB of content without permission to train their model and it was ok for them. Now someone else uses the output of a Claude model to train model and they cry foul.

It was not okay for them, they had to pay one billion dollars.
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