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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#561

Post by higginsniggins »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #365
weinzierl wrote: post #126

Not to defend German bureaucracy but if you are serious and want results this is not how you do it. If you want a GmbH quickly there are specialized lawyers that maintain a pool of freshly founded GmbH's for you to buy. Everything is set up for you to start. If you don't like certain things like the company name, you can always change it later. That being said, I know plenty of people who founded their GmbH themselve…

> If you want a GmbH quickly there are specialized lawyers that maintain a pool of freshly founded GmbH's for you to buy. The fact that this absurd situation exists is a huge proof that the bureaucracy has gotten out of hand and that Germany is unfriendly to starting new businesses.

Sounds like a great opportunity to build a markplace of these entities, where sellers can sell them to buyers and the marketplace automates as much of the paperwork as possible.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#562

Post by woah »

rayiner wrote: post #308
Zak wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A company that starts with nothing wouldn't be a GmbH (limited liability company), it would be a GoH (company without liability), and there's a good reason why those don't exist... Those do exist in other countries. An LLC in the USA does not generally need to have a certain amount of assets. Such a company is more or less without liability until it has some assets; the worst case for its owners when it comes to a…

Not quite. In the US this condition is handled at the back end. Running a corporation or LLC without sufficient capitalization can be grounds for piercing the liability shield in a lawsuit.

This is a core difference between common law and civil law. In common law systems, things tend to get sorted out after the fact, with a judge's discretion, only if things go really wrong. In civil law systems they try to design a perfect system of laws that makes problems impossible.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#563

Post by woah »

zymhan wrote: post #469
nradov wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company collapses while having more liabilities than assets then that's fine. No one is being forced to extend any credit to them.

It will make it harder for "worthy" companies to get loans and credit.

Is that why it's so hard to get capital, credit, loans, and investment in the USA?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#564

Post by petesergeant »

kuschku wrote: post #558
petesergeant wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UG forces you to retain profit to hit a capitalisation target. An Ltd is a real company, and my £1 company has an identical legal status to one with hundreds of millions of pounds of assets.

Yes, there's a difference. But the question is whether that difference actually matters in practice. If you're a startup, you won't be making a profit anyway. Once you make a profit, 25k€ on the books (not necessarily cash) isn't a lot, especially as it doesn't have to remain in the company, you can use it to pay wages once converted to a GmbH. In the end, this is a question about whether you need something to be exa…

> But the question is whether that difference actually matters in practice.

Apparently the author -- and every none-German in this thread -- thinks so.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#565

Post by petesergeant »

fakedang wrote: post #555
petesergeant wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finanzamt may well decide this is a German company in the cunning disguise of a cowboy hat, and charge it German corporate tax

Which is still fine imo. My idea was not about skipping German corporate or personal taxes - it was about skipping German bureaucracy.

> it was about skipping German bureaucracy

By creating a company that requires a special filing status to the German tax office?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#566

Post by deaux »

throwaway-blaze wrote: post #545
sandcat_ wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not true. From mandatory refunds when selling online, to capped credit card fees, to longer warranties, the EU is clearly better for consumer rights. Some US businesses have realized that openly screwing your customers isn’t good business practice, but they’re somewhat of the exception I hear (and a lot of those companies offer the same policies, or better, in the EU, e.g. Costco) Apple is another good example…

And all of Apple's products are much more expensive in the EU. In Austria, a MacBook Air starts at EUR1199, and the same device starts at USD1099. At today's exchange rate, that European device costs USD1360, or nearly 20% more. We can argue about the consumer friendliness of the regulations in the EU but they also add demonstrably to the cost of tech products (and likely other categories).

> We can argue about the consumer friendliness of the regulations in the EU but they also add demonstrably to the cost of tech product

Nope, they don't. You'd have to compare with some countries that are 1. Not the US 2. Have less consumer protections than the EU. And guess what? Apple products are also significantly more expensive than the US there. But hey, half your comments on here are this kind of EU bashing based on grade school reasoning.

It's surprising to see on HN of all places people unaware that Apple products (and almost all other tech products) have been a lot cheaper in the US than elsewhere for decades.

So much FUD here, same for the Bunny thread. It doesn't feel organic anymore.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#567

Post by WhyComboNadir »

I feel your pain -- I gave up (in Austria). The best thing that happened to me was that it took so long to get incorporated that I had time to talk to people about what happens next (e.g. annual filing, need for accountants even if revenue is still zero, etc.). So I consider the sunk cost a valuable 4,000 Euro learning experience, and I won't try to repeat it:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48325340#48336339

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#568

Post by notpushkin »

markvdb wrote: post #484
notpushkin wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up to 2500 €. You could put in 2500 € in capital – then your personal exposure will be zero. In practice, I don’t think it’s a meaningful difference, you will just have to keep the whole 2500 € on the company balance by the end of each FY. (Unless you wanna deal with non-monetary contributions!) If you put in 500 €, you’re liable for 2000 € personally, but you don’t have to keep them for your annual report. (It also…

Substance in Estonia is usually required. A rented address does not suffice for that.

Could you elaborate, please? I’ve thought the whole point of e.g. the e-Residency program was to bring in business that’s not substantially tied to Estonia.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#570

Post by gunapologist99 »

rayiner wrote: post #308
Zak wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A company that starts with nothing wouldn't be a GmbH (limited liability company), it would be a GoH (company without liability), and there's a good reason why those don't exist... Those do exist in other countries. An LLC in the USA does not generally need to have a certain amount of assets. Such a company is more or less without liability until it has some assets; the worst case for its owners when it comes to a…

Not quite. In the US this condition is handled at the back end. Running a corporation or LLC without sufficient capitalization can be grounds for piercing the liability shield in a lawsuit.

Have to prove fraud to get there. "Under" capitalization is a judgment call. Effectively, it's very rare. An LLC launches with effectively zero dollars literally dozens of times a day.
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