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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#241

Post by earcar »

Lariscus wrote: post #194
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

The authors inability to understand this really makes wonder how much of the rest of their story is essentially self-inflicted.

I have founded a UG and upgraded to a GmbH before.

It had got us "more credibility" with our clients, and 12,500EUR less in each other's bank accounts.

Thanks for your insults.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#242

Post by sounddetective »

Start a limited liability company in Latvia or Estonia. It will take you 1 business day, you can do it remotely, and, because of EU laws, you can do business everywhere in EU. Basically nothing you can do with Gmbh that you cannot do with Latvian or Estonian equivalent

https://www.vid.gov.lv/en/first-steps-entrepreneurs

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#243

Post by metadat »

notpushkin wrote: post #232
arethuza wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I co-founded a company in the UK in 1995 there were two £1 shares - one for each founder. Mind you it was an off the shelf company - but the process couldn't really be much simpler back then - and its probably a lot simpler now.

You can open an Estonian company with 0.01 € capital. It will look ridiculous in the registry, and you will still be liable for the remaining 2499.99 € personally anyway, but it is possible. I’ve seen a couple 100 € companies, which is more reasonable I guess. You can also declare that you’ve paid the capital in, without any proof required for small amounts (up to 50k € IIRC). If you lie about it, I suppose you’ll be…

Then it’s not an LLC, though. Personal assets exposed.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#244

Post by egorfine »

ExpertAdvisor01 wrote: post #147
noxvilleza wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have multiple friends who have done an Estonian OÜ despite being primarily German. No issues on this tax side.

If they are still a German tax resident , they are committing tax evasion . § 1 Abs. 1 KStG

It doesn't really matter.

If you do business in Germany you are evading taxes just by the fact of doing business. Everything and anything you make belongs to the government. It is an unfortunate loophole in the law that temporarily permits you to steal some of your profit back from the government where it rightfully belongs.

Yeah, this is sarcasm, but not really. The practical reality is that it simply makes no sense to incorporate in Germany. For example, the OP missed six months of opportunity just to please the bureaucracy and it's not even the end of it.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#245

Post by amiga386 »

arethuza wrote: post #180
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

When I co-founded a company in the UK in 1995 there were two £1 shares - one for each founder. Mind you it was an off the shelf company - but the process couldn't really be much simpler back then - and its probably a lot simpler now.

For a limited company in the UK, you need a number of pieces of legal paperwork which I think you can technically write yourself but may prefer a solicitor to draft them correctly for you, and then you pay £100 to register the company, and you (and any other directors, shareholders or guarantors) capitalise the company yourself.

You are now limited in liability for what the company does, to no more than the capital you put into it.

You then have to supply yearly accounts, may have to register for corporation tax, VAT, register as an employer for paying national insurance, you'll probably need business insurance, etc.

https://www.gov.uk/set-up-limited-company

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#246

Post by botulidze »

I recently helped my friend (3rd country national) to open a new business in Czech Republic.

It took 3 months from registration to sending her first invoice. The longest wait was on the bank account: a very few places are willing to open company account if you don't have an EU residency. Without the bank account, she couldn't deposit founding capital (základní kapitál) which is required to complete the registration. It's even funnier cause the minimum amount to deposit is 1 CZK (5 cents).

Total cost to start business was under $8,000. The most expensive were legal services: writing down all contracts and customer agreements was around ~$5,000.

I feel like this is such an untapped market for getting digitilized. I was thinking to actually sit and vibe code it at some point but can't imagine doing this alone.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#247

Post by woffelski »

Skill issue?

I seriously don't know what you people are doing. I've set up companies in Germany, the US, Brazil and Mexico.

The US was BY FAR, the most enjoyable experience. Won't say anything else. It was a breeze! But Germany wasn't as bad as people make it sometimes. Just don't go with a super complicated, overengineered setup and you are up and running almost instantly. Better won't mention Brazil, though.

If you have the resources, get some QUALIFIED lawyer/notary on board and it'll all be super chill and quick. And if you're just getting started, just do a sole proprietorship as you get started (and you can start working pretty much on the same day), and have the GmbH setup process run on the side.

Running the business is the hard part!

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#248

Post by NooneAtAll3 »

robtro wrote: post #65

Germany is one of the worst countries when it comes to bureaucracy nothing is fast here if you go the legal path and stay within the law (which is mostly for small people big players have different ways) and as you see everything costs a lot so if you are founding a pure online business do yourself a favor and incorporate somewhere else and if you still live in Germany look into licensing or subcontracting yourself t…

> nothing is fast here if you go the legal path and stay within the law

> and as you see everything costs a lot

this sounds like a system primed for corruption

if you can pay half the needed amount to do everything 5 times as fast, would you not do it?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#249

Post by fakedang »

phlo wrote: post #198

You have to savour the lack of self-awareness in this one. > Founder chooses the most complex legal structure that's readily-available... and is surprised that this complexity comes with laywer and notary fees. > Founder decides to incorporate a company with the name of a popular brand of kitchen rolls... and is surprised that it's too generic. > After "weeks of correspondence" (and, I suppose, extensive research), f…

Is the GmbH the most complex legal structure? What about the AG?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#250

Post by petesergeant »

fakedang wrote: post #217
ExpertAdvisor01 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't incorporate somewhere else it will only lead to disaster. The company will end up being German tax resident anyways due to management and control being in Germany as you live in Germany . Then you have to be compliant in 2 jurisdictions (file forms/balance sheets in both countries etc..) and worst case you could become subject to double taxation (if there is no agreement). The optimal solution is just to leave…

Can't you just incorporate a Wyoming LLC (zero corporate tax + federal tax because you're non-resident in the US) then just open a Wise account? Wyoming LLC gives passthrough taxation, and because you're in Germany, you'll be subject to German corporate and personal taxes alone, I presume? Edit: changed from just personal tax to personal+corporate

Finanzamt may well decide this is a German company in the cunning disguise of a cowboy hat, and charge it German corporate tax
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