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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#521

Post by lazyasciiart »

keiferski wrote: post #426
sandcat_ wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not true. From mandatory refunds when selling online, to capped credit card fees, to longer warranties, the EU is clearly better for consumer rights. Some US businesses have realized that openly screwing your customers isn’t good business practice, but they’re somewhat of the exception I hear (and a lot of those companies offer the same policies, or better, in the EU, e.g. Costco) Apple is another good example…

It seems to me that if there is some sort of law or regulation that can be passed, then that policy will be better in the EU. If the better service is a result of competition, then it will likely be better in the US. In general though, culturally, the US is much more "the customer is always right", whereas in the EU, it's considered a hassle to cater to customers that much. This mentality translates across the econom…

I have never received cash compensation for a delayed flight in the US, but I have in the EU. In my opinion, in the EU if the business screws up it’s their problem: in the US it is the customers, unless you shop somewhere large enough to voluntarily cover their mistakes. Which is, indeed, one reason that anybody can run a business with nothing in the US.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#522

Post by WinstonSmith84 »

ghaff wrote: post #340
Zak wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A company that starts with nothing wouldn't be a GmbH (limited liability company), it would be a GoH (company without liability), and there's a good reason why those don't exist... Those do exist in other countries. An LLC in the USA does not generally need to have a certain amount of assets. Such a company is more or less without liability until it has some assets; the worst case for its owners when it comes to a…

I set up an LLC in the US for about $500 and pay Delaware a few hundred each year in fees. As it turned out, it was probably an unnecessary exercise and I probably won't renew in a couple years. But it wasn't a big deal.

Delaware is expensive and you must have had a very specific reason to build your LLC there, rather than for example in Wyoming - such that to raise capital, build a corporation, etc. Now if you want to shut it down in a couple of years, it's not exactly clear what you had in mind.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#523

Post by lazyasciiart »

echoangle wrote: post #419
keiferski wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if that matters much. Only the actual end result does. The better policies given by US companies is also likely driven by competition, so by definition they wouldn't be something that a government regulation could accomplish (other than to incentivize more competition.)

It does because for one you can go to court. If a company stops playing nice because they think you’re defrauding them if you tell them your package went missing during transit, company niceness doesn’t get you anything. (That’s a random example btw, I don’t know how this is handled legally in the US. The point is that there are situations where you actually want the law on your side).

You don’t have to go to court even - there is usually a regulatory body that will enforce these for you. This is the whole reason why there is an image of America as sue-happy: they have chosen a regulatory system of “so sue them” instead of a functioning consumer protection system (or any authority with the ability to enforce the ADA, for example).

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#524

Post by mpweiher »

nonethewiser wrote: post #457
mplappert wrote: post #297

There’s a lot of confusion here: - There is no double taxation if you just pay yourself a salary (since it’s a normal business expense). If you want to take money out of the company flexibly, a GmbH is the wrong structure. - I’ve never heard of anybody doing an UG/GmbH + KG to get started. This is highly unusual. Most people either do just a simple UG or maybe they set up a holding structure with two separate GmbH /…

You don’t think the barrier to entry is a valid criticism?

There is valid criticism to the barriers to entry that do exist.

The problems the post describes are not that. They are barriers that the author created himself by selecting a complex corporate setup.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#525

Post by dgellow »

anaisbetts wrote: post #455
dgellow wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it different from the tax you would face if you just realize your gains?

The exit tax doesn't apply to "gains", it applies to the "value of your company" which is calculated in a way that often means you will owe thousands or even millions in money you don't have, and at no time had.

Sounds indeed pretty terrible…

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#526

Post by ekelsen »

notanormalnerd wrote: post #459
FLHerne wrote: post #51

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. > And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH The post itself explains exactly why the first complaint is a fallacy and the second one is tru…

Yeah, he has no clue and complains about having no clue. He wants a company but not put down any assets, but still limited liability, he has to get a UG. But obviously customers don't want to deal with that because there are no assets in case they pay 5.000€ and the company goes belly up. Customers deal with GmbH, because they know they have at least a little bit of value in assets. So if I buy from you for 5.000€ I…

That's not how it works in most other countries and it seems fine?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#527

Post by lazyasciiart »

freehorse wrote: post #315
earcar wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have founded a UG and upgraded to a GmbH before. It had got us "more credibility" with our clients, and 12,500EUR less in each other's bank accounts. Thanks for your insults.

> I have founded a UG and upgraded to a GmbH before. So why not to the same here, instead of going with this more complicated setup?

Because they want the credibility with clients, but for free.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#528

Post by asyx »

nonethewiser wrote: post #457
mplappert wrote: post #297

There’s a lot of confusion here: - There is no double taxation if you just pay yourself a salary (since it’s a normal business expense). If you want to take money out of the company flexibly, a GmbH is the wrong structure. - I’ve never heard of anybody doing an UG/GmbH + KG to get started. This is highly unusual. Most people either do just a simple UG or maybe they set up a holding structure with two separate GmbH /…

You don’t think the barrier to entry is a valid criticism?

Like he said the GmbH is just the wrong legal form of his company. You can register a Kleingewerbe online over night and an UG within 2 weeks and that waiting period is only 2 weeks because it's such a simple and cheap process that notaries won't make time for you and they are busy people so you just take the next free slot they have in their calendar. So if you are lucky you can get an appointment the next day.

My wife works for a notary and most of the time people are really pushing to get an appointment but then fail to register a bank account on time so they have to wait a couple of weeks anyway without anybodies fault but their own.

Also this is not some secret knowledge. Like, these are not some tricks you learn over time this is something you could technically just ask a tax consultant or a notary. In fact the notary even likes it if you do that because if you try to be clever on your own you are most likely going to cause them more work. Like, you can literally go to a notary and say "this is my business. What should I do?" and they are either going to just do an UG with you or sent you to a tax consultant just to be sure.

Like, we have notaries because and they are as expensive as they are because they are supposed to consult you in legal matters and they are required for so many things so that you don't accidentally mess something up that is complicated.

Going to a notary really makes this so easy. You just sit there, dude's gonna read his legalese text and then sums it up in 2 sentences for you. Didn't get something? Ask questions. That's why you are there. That's their job.

It's really only difficult if you need a lil something for the AppStore for a side hustle and then try to get a GmbH straight away without ever consulting anybody that is literally only there to consult you and make it easier for you.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#529

Post by gregorygoc »

lucamark wrote: post #442
gregorygoc wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, Germany == Europe.

Do you think that stuffs are different in Italy, Spain or France? Just to cite some others

Yes, it is different in Netherlands, Sweden, Poland.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#530

Post by [deleted] »

markvdb wrote: post #463
jeroenhd wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Registering a private limited liability company in the Netherlands costs around 400 euros. If you can file all of the taxes and other legally required paperwork yourself, you can be set up in a week or two. You will be a salaried employee of your own company, though, with a minimal salary you will need to rake in. The combination of "no personal risk whatsoever, minimal funds/risk coverage, maximal profit extraction"…

> If you can file all of the taxes and other legally required paperwork yourself, you can be set up in a week or two. Is realistic in the Netherlands to try and fulfill all formal paperwork requirements? In my native Belgian city, outsourcing that be from ~3k€ excluding VAT/year for the very simplest CIT liable structure. That's excluding 409.3€ corporate social security contribution and 148€ provincial tax. That mak…

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