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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#141

Post by cm2187 »

bartread wrote: post #62
VadimPR wrote: post #8

Before Europe gets lumped in as one country, founding a company in Netherlands and Sweden, speaking from personal experience, is a breeze. Although Sweden is a bit strange in the fact that banks have as much equal say as the government authority does in you starting a company, and if they don't want you as a customer, they can simply deny the right for your company to start!

In the UK it used to be one form and a fee of £25 or something like that. I think, nowadays, that's probably just done online as well.

But I understand the admin has gone up significantly. Though I presume AI is pretty good at generating the boiler plate bureaucratic work (privacy policy, anti slavery statements, etc).

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#142

Post by odiroot »

earcar wrote: post #109
robtro wrote: post #65

Germany is one of the worst countries when it comes to bureaucracy nothing is fast here if you go the legal path and stay within the law (which is mostly for small people big players have different ways) and as you see everything costs a lot so if you are founding a pure online business do yourself a favor and incorporate somewhere else and if you still live in Germany look into licensing or subcontracting yourself t…

I have yet to find the mythical efficiency everyone was talking about. Trains, Berlin Brandenburg Airport, this. It's rules and adherence to rules, more than efficiency, that I've found in my experience.

There is no efficiency to be found.

It's a "cover your ass" mentality that resists any changes.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#144

Post by lucamark »

Europe will suffocate under the weight of its own bureaucracy. The sad thing is that it is not new to me, I've heard so many stories like this one. This is the kind of friction that makes founders incorporate elsewhere.

Also, a founder spending months coordinating lawyers banks and tax advisors is not talking to customers or building the product. The opportunity cost here is huge.

Anyway, you are pretty close. One more push, don’t give up. :)

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#146

Post by AndroTux »

florakel wrote: post #135

I don’t know the specifics but the OP chose a complicated setup. Why not just use a GmbH which is the equivalent to an Inc in the US? The capital requirement is 12500 in the bank not 25000 as stated. There are online services that run the whole process for you similar to Stripe Atlas. Even setting up a UG (with 1 euro stating capital) is very easy but you have to upgrade to a GmbH once you receive investment (investo…

I guess that’s what happens when you get advised by a lawyer.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#147

Post by ExpertAdvisor01 »

noxvilleza wrote: post #123
earcar wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That way, AFAIK, the German government will determine that the "place of effective management" is Germany, and tax you also there. Double taxation is not better.

Have multiple friends who have done an Estonian OÜ despite being primarily German. No issues on this tax side.

If they are still a German tax resident , they are committing tax evasion . § 1 Abs. 1 KStG

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#148

Post by flopbob »

Aurornis wrote: post #95
mpweiher wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, what you are doing is complicated. I did a GmbH with "Musterprotokolle" so virtually no lawyer fees and quick and easy to set up. And a GmbH is limited liability. It's in the name. Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung . GmbH. The Geschäftsführer is liable for certain (avoidable) things in either case. The difference is that that the Co KG can be taxed like a "Personengesellschaft". So you wanted to optimize tax…

> But then don't moan about it being complicated. It was your choice. I don’t understand why you’re deriding someone for explaining why establishing a common business structure is slow and complicated. The fact that a less advantageous business structure is available faster, but with significant tradeoffs, does not diminish the problems with this business structure.

GmbH & Co KG are not that common, in fact the overwhelming majorities are GmbH, UG or AG (public corporation). The only benefit you can get out of this shell structure is that you don‘t have to disclose investors publicly

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#149

Post by Aurornis »

wongarsu wrote: post #113
Aurornis wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only good thing is that an investor or an owner are not liable with their private money. That’s incredibly important. More than a footnote. I would consider any other form to be non-viable if it doesn’t have such protections. For comparison, starting an LLC in the United States is a trivial operation. I can’t even remember how long it took me to set mine up because it was a trivial event. Maybe a couple hours,…

Setting up a plain UG or GmbH gives the same advantage of not being liable with your private money, and is also a comparatively trivial process. Especially if you are the sole owner. Still slow compared to the US or UK, but not half a year slow Starting out a company as a UG & Co KG is a tax optimization move, not a liability issue

> Starting out a company as a UG & Co KG is a tax optimization move, not a liability issue

Thanks for the clarification. However I’m still surprised that tax optimization is also considered a footnote in these conversations.

In the countries I’m familiar with (mostly the US, minor second-hand experience with friends in some other countries as they started their businesses) starting a limited liability business venture that has the tax structure of a business isn’t considered a heroic effort. Starting the business is basically the least of your concerns. Almost a formality.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#150

Post by nish1500 »

weinzierl wrote: post #126

Not to defend German bureaucracy but if you are serious and want results this is not how you do it. If you want a GmbH quickly there are specialized lawyers that maintain a pool of freshly founded GmbH's for you to buy. Everything is set up for you to start. If you don't like certain things like the company name, you can always change it later. That being said, I know plenty of people who founded their GmbH themselve…

I incorporated a GmbH with Musterprotokolle and it still look me longer than OP.
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