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Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia

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Re: Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia

#141

Post by duskwuff »

xacky wrote: post #74
Heidaradar wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

did you read the reason why he was blocked? I can't say who's right or wrong but their reasons for blocking him seem to be valid in nature.

I've been following Wikipedia almost since it began, the stated reason is not matching the actual reason, They've wanted Larry Gone for years, even Jimmy will very be betrayed eventually. Unfortunately the real aftermath won't be known until many more get banned.

> They've wanted Larry Gone for years

Larry was essentially inactive* on Wikipedia from 2002 until he started stirring things up last year. Nobody "wanted him gone" - he simply wasn't relevant to the project.

*: Aside from updating his user profile and commenting on talk pages about himself and his projects.

Re: Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia

#142

Post by moralestapia »

Aurornis wrote: post #97
wongarsu wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting procedural detail is how an admin decided to just close the discussion and ban the user before the mandatory discussion period was over, and got a lot of pushback for the sloppy decision making process. This was overturned, only for another admin to reach the same conclusion seven hours later, after the discussion was online for the mandatory 72 hours (with no consideration for the two hours between th…

Having a labyrinth of rules to follow and then applying them asymmetrically is a classic way to build power for the ingroup and exile outsiders. The ingroup knows the rules well enough that they can wait until an enemy crosses one of the rules, then they have an excuse to punish them. The more rules on the books, the more opportunities to use them against your enemies. When someone inside breaks the rules, it’s treat…

This.

At clubs. At school. At work.

This is one of the first things I taught my kids to recognize and yet I see plenty of people in their 40s or more that still haven't figured it out. Some of them even become "useful fools" and make matters worse.

Re: Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia

#143

Post by moralestapia »

spidercat wrote: post #117
JdeBP wrote: post #92

There is a long history here, and if you are looking at just the WikiProject and the community ban discussion, you are missing a Hell of a lot. Very short background: Larry Sanger left Wikipedia in 2003. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Diff/707321 Sanger went on to set up Citizendium, a wiki encyclopaedia project organized the way that xe thought one should be organized, with an extensive rulebase and 'consta…

Maybe not particularly relevant, but I'm noticing you using "xe" pronouns for Sanger. Why is that? Just wondering if I am missing more context.

Larry Sanger is very clearly a man and has never expressed any desire to be treated differently than that.

JdeBP is misgendering him on purpose, which is a very serious offense and even illegal in many parts of the world.

We'll see if this is allowed to stay here.

Re: Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia

#144

Post by moralestapia »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #40
croes wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is a large movement to censor this guy's opinions Wikipedia is the wrong place for opinions

Having opinions on Wikipedia policies is perfectly appropriate.

In theory.

In practice, just read TFA and this whole thread of comments about it.

Re: Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia

#145

Post by moralestapia »

jasonlotito wrote: post #51
mijoharas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found the thread hard to parse.[0]. Can you explain the reason? from a brief skim he is promoting some project he wants to start in wikipedia from outside wikipedia, is that it or did I misunderstand? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noti...

Simple. He broke this rule: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Canvassing This is fairly straightforward, with the result (blocked from editing) mentioned clearly. It doesn't matter the topic. Being a cofounder is immaterial.

The link you provided does not describe what would be usually be thought of as a "rule".

Consider updating your comment to make more sense wrt. that.

Re: Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia

#146

Post by FireBeyond »

wongarsu wrote: post #31

So to summarize: he resuggested "WikiProject Intellectual Diversity", a group with the goal to make "Wikipedia more intellectually diverse" and "ensure fair and open decision-making and governance, broaden the range of permissible sources, reinforce genuine neutrality, rein in over-aggressive blocking while holding the powerful to higher standards of accountability", etc, with the implied undertone of preventing Wiki…

> This is unpopular because people oppose this on various grounds (mostly that it might be vote brigading and tiling decisions in their favor just by showing up in an organised way around wikipedia). Also the same project was apparently suggested before and rejected in early stages

It's gone now, but this is hilariously on-brand - Wikipedia Review had its own axes to grind but did hugely in-depth work exposing Wikipedia Admins for "caballing", having secret mailing lists that Wikipedia denied the existence of, private IRC channels where admins had their pet topics that they owned and would "get suppressing fire" from other admins when they were going to make edits that reflected their POV (i.e. "watch while I edit and block/ban people who try to revert or interfere"). They'd do the same for admin elections etc.

Re: Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia

#147

Post by greyface- »

Aurornis wrote: post #97
wongarsu wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting procedural detail is how an admin decided to just close the discussion and ban the user before the mandatory discussion period was over, and got a lot of pushback for the sloppy decision making process. This was overturned, only for another admin to reach the same conclusion seven hours later, after the discussion was online for the mandatory 72 hours (with no consideration for the two hours between th…

Having a labyrinth of rules to follow and then applying them asymmetrically is a classic way to build power for the ingroup and exile outsiders. The ingroup knows the rules well enough that they can wait until an enemy crosses one of the rules, then they have an excuse to punish them. The more rules on the books, the more opportunities to use them against your enemies. When someone inside breaks the rules, it’s treat…

Wikipedians refer to such ingroup members as The Unblockables. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Unblockables

Re: Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia

#148

Post by FireBeyond »

martinald wrote: post #67
afh1 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, banned by the status quo for trying to disturb it. Wikipedia is nowadays highly politicized and more time and energy are spent on politics than on actually contributing with any useful knowledge. I've stopped contributing years ago after a decade of writing because of how bad things had gotten. It's a lost battle, all that remains is scorched earth filled with toxic editors trying to push their POV and banning e…

Yes agreed, for example, there was an interesting table on the starlink page I used to check every so often showing which countries had access to starlink as it was rolled out. Was interesting to see the expansion. Of course, some editor decided it was 'marketing' for starlink so it got deleted despite loads of people protesting. It was the only source I could find easily for showing which country got starlink when.…

Huh, ironically, the opposite happened with Tesla, when numerous editors warred to include a model on the list of "Fastest Production Vehicles", even though the model hadn't been released, based on a press release from Tesla (and even that said it was a simulated, expected number).

It got to the point where there was a column for "verified" numbers, others, and then "Manufacturer projected" numbers.

Re: Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia

#149

Post by FireBeyond »

afh1 wrote: post #50
wongarsu wrote: post #31

So to summarize: he resuggested "WikiProject Intellectual Diversity", a group with the goal to make "Wikipedia more intellectually diverse" and "ensure fair and open decision-making and governance, broaden the range of permissible sources, reinforce genuine neutrality, rein in over-aggressive blocking while holding the powerful to higher standards of accountability", etc, with the implied undertone of preventing Wiki…

Yes, banned by the status quo for trying to disturb it. Wikipedia is nowadays highly politicized and more time and energy are spent on politics than on actually contributing with any useful knowledge. I've stopped contributing years ago after a decade of writing because of how bad things had gotten. It's a lost battle, all that remains is scorched earth filled with toxic editors trying to push their POV and banning e…

Yeah, try to make any substantive change on many pages and you'll get met with a barrage of "WP:OR! WP:POV! WP:NPS! WP:WTF!" and don't fall into the amateur trap (that certain editors hope you will) of reverting their reversion. They'll look to get you blocked for a revert war. "What should I do then?" "You should respond to my comments on the Talk page for why I reverted you." "But you haven't made any comments on the Talk page about that." "That's beside the point."

Re: Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger blocked from editing Wikipedia

#150

Post by Kim_Bruning »

wongarsu wrote: post #31

So to summarize: he resuggested "WikiProject Intellectual Diversity", a group with the goal to make "Wikipedia more intellectually diverse" and "ensure fair and open decision-making and governance, broaden the range of permissible sources, reinforce genuine neutrality, rein in over-aggressive blocking while holding the powerful to higher standards of accountability", etc, with the implied undertone of preventing Wiki…

Well, sure, it looks like one thing, but ...

I took a quick look at what the "Wikiproject intellectual diversity" was actually monitoring. Specific articles or categories about things Mr Sanger finds interesting,right? Well, indeed: specifically it's all arbcom, admin elections, policy pages. You can check it out here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Larry_Sanger/WikiProject_...

Then he canvassed people from outside wikipedia to help with that project.

So he claimed to be doing one thing, but in reality it was more of a thinly disguised power play by the look of it.

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