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Job application asked for my SAT scores

mrmarket.lol

281–290 of 403 posts

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I've seen some interesting data that kids who could've been successful premeds or engineers at their state flagship but instead eke their way into Harvard or Princeton (sports scholarship, legacy etc) will instead graduate with a flaky studies major because they couldn't cut it in their intended major and the switching costs of transferring were too high. There are downsides if you end up a small fish in a bi…

Is the actual premed or engineering coursework at Harvard or Princeton really that much more rigorous than that at a flagship state school? I'm doubtful.

Quick answer: YES

Longer answer - in the other reply to your doubtfulness.

This is true across the entire US system, some state flagship universities curricula are so deficient that graduate level at better schools wont even consider the bachelor level diplomas from those schools as eligible unless the applicant is top n% of the graduating class, where n is a low single digit.

The admissions committee may never publish or say it directly, but for MANY state flagship universities the B.S. level maths and science courses are simply insufficient fo higher level studies at leading schools.

Thus, companies with hiring and leadership that is aware of these conditions will also simply pass over applicants with degrees from flagship state universities, much the same as they do with online diploma mill "Graduates."

My take on this situation is that as primary education outcomes worsened in the US, state universities modulated the coursework to match the readiness of incoming students in order to keep enrollment 'available' to everyone and extract revenue from the student loans system.

The "Princeton and Harvard(s)" were differently motivated, in that they never had a goal of admitting the majority of High School graduates, and thus were not required to lower levels of educational rigour to meet eroding conditions in primary education.

It truly is a sad "state" of affairs.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#282
post #23

I have seen company descriptions in job ads that list college achievements of founders. They are invariably young Asian men. I understand that it's a cultural signifier and don't judge them. But, I also understand that I will never hear back from them because I don't share that background. So, I never apply to any job listing that references college experience of either side, other than wanting a degree in general.

Someone once told me that American work culture used to be based more on intern-ship / apprentice type hiring but now obsess with formal degrees. I wonder how much of this shift in culture is influenced by the Korean, Chinese and Indian immigrants, as a formal education is a prerequisite to compete in these countries' job market? For example, it is quite common in India for employers to ask for our 10th and 12th stan…

I have suspected the influence is real. For a reference point, the majority of students at top tier US universities are Asian at this point, broadly. Not every top tier university but there's a trend to have about 30-40% Asian American students and then roughly 1/3 international which is heavily weighted toward China and India. This constitutes the largest group usually. So it's quite likely that universities adapt to this and hiring practices begin to reflect an intense interest in exam taking and credentials.

The thing about it is I view it similarly to how in the past "well-roundedness" and "leadership" was part of hiring and admissions. We laugh at that now but my understanding is the SAT score can be improved with long term studying. So intensive SAT studying seems like a new thing that isn't evenly practiced among people in the US. So at worst SAT score usage seems like a way for an elite group to preserve and replicate itself. I have no SAT score so I feel somewhat outside of this debate and have no experience with it.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#283

It's weird that people think AI breaks the concept of work sample testing. Work sample testing isn't "about" programming, and predates the profession of programming. You can (and some companies do) work-sample test sales account managers, customer support, accountants, whatever. AI changes the underlying job you're testing for. So, obviously, the tests you might have been using pre-AI won't work anymore; they're test…

I've seen you comment along those lines before, and I think you're both right, and terribly wrong.

By all measures, the way you describe any hiring processes you've designed and had input on designing the metric and the work sample, probably is both high in signal, and not very arbitrary in scoring. They sound genuinely and refreshingly good. Maybe one day I'll interact with one :)

But man, that is very much not how work sample tests work in _a lot_ of places out there.

Places with actual, formalized rubrics for what constitutes a "pass" or a "good" score are very rare, it's almost always just based on vibes of whatever person is reading your code. If there _are_ formalized rubrics, then they have "suggested allowed time" that is incongruous with what the requirements for a "pass" actually are.

All of that is downstream, fundamentally, from the design of the tests not being taken very seriously by the people doing that. And because they're not actually thinking about it very deeply (or they're not allowed to because of time constraints or whatever); "sit down and redesign this task from first principles thinking about what AI enables now" is just not something that happens, and you just get people increasing the scopes of the project blindly.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#284
It's always odd to me when filters are applied, that arguably neither influence, nor impact outcomes. From what I can see, SAT scores have effectively changed over time, such that reading comprehension has dropped dramatically, with maths abilities increasing (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/06/11/for-the-1...).

One (me) might argue that now, more then ever, reading matters. The age of AI, only increases the value of critical thinking and reading comprehension skills. Combine that with a (notable) 5-10% change in SAT scores, and it would appear that this practice is unlikely to unearth what factor is being filtered for.

Mind you, no one has ever not accused our industry of tunnel vision, and confirmation bias.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#285
post #7

Sneaky age filter? You must be young enough to remember your SAT scores.

Between 2005 and 2015 the maximum score was 2400 instead of 1600. Assuming anyone who got But of course this is a lot of unnecessary steps compared to the usual method: length of work and education history +18 years.

The extra 800 points didn't count for a few years, I didn't practice for it and as expected did bad. Don't remeber the score except I did well enough on math

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be able to help with that bewilderment. Imagine, you have two people. Person A knows cursive, person B does not. Person B knows the ins and outs of Newtonian physics, person A does not. Which person is smarter? Which person would the cursive test say is smarter? What you seem to have mistook for people not knowing things without shame, is people valuing knowledge not by the preponderance of its quantity but by…

The person who knows cursive can go on to learn Newtonian physics. Now he knows two things. While your supposed hero still only knows one.

Once upon a time, I thought I wanted to learn cursive handwriting. Except this version of me was already in his 20s, would be out of school in a matter of months, and quickly realized the skill would be of such marginal utility in the future that it wasn't worth the hours spent tracing out giant letters like a kindergartener every day.

One could learn this skill in their 20s or beyond, but there's an opportunity cost – why not something else that would actually improve work performance, or that you enjoy doing?

I still wish I'd been taught in elementary school, though, because it would've been really useful as a student. Some of our teachers discreetly handed out practice booklets to students who'd "expressed interest" (their parents taught them the basics and teacher noticed); most of us were not so lucky.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#287
post #283

It's weird that people think AI breaks the concept of work sample testing. Work sample testing isn't "about" programming, and predates the profession of programming. You can (and some companies do) work-sample test sales account managers, customer support, accountants, whatever. AI changes the underlying job you're testing for. So, obviously, the tests you might have been using pre-AI won't work anymore; they're test…

I've seen you comment along those lines before, and I think you're both right, and terribly wrong. By all measures, the way you describe any hiring processes you've designed and had input on designing the metric and the work sample, probably is both high in signal, and not very arbitrary in scoring. They sound genuinely and refreshingly good. Maybe one day I'll interact with one :) But man, that is very much not how…

I agree that there aren't many places that are serious about work-sample testing and far too many that using them as a hiring hazing ritual, but that doesn't make me "terribly wrong", just more distinctively right. We've hired resume-blind at Fly.io for 6 years using work samples with fixed rubrics.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took the SAT 50 some years ago. I kinda doubt I would do so well on it today without doing remedial prep work on the math.

The SAT is actually a lot easier today than it was when most of us took it. It is an hour or more shorter in length, the long reading passages have been replaced with short paragraphs, calculators are allowed, and vocabulary has been removed.

I couldn't find a version of this video on YouTube without commentary. The reading comprehension level in the US is completely unacceptable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FdGIRBUds4

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is you're equating `failing a test` to `lacking the relevant skills and knowledge to do a certain task competently`. The reality is sometimes tests in academia are just not very well made and don't really test what they are supposed to be testing, and that's usually due to multiple reasons like misaligned incentives, staffing shortages and maybe lack of resources / funding. I don't think the comparis…

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Back in the dark ages of the 80s when I was taking the SAT and ACT, these tests were considered good predictors for the first semester's performance.

That's it.

I did well on both tests and did well on my first semester. It's the semesters after where my performance tanked because I didn't have some of the work habits that solid B students had. (I will also be clear and say that at least some of the problem is attributable to the university and how it handled advisors. My advisor was completely useless and let me schedule for _way_ too much hard stuff.)

There was also a really good predictor of how one would do on the SAT or ACT: NoBitH. The Number of Bathrooms in the House.

Yup. The SAT and ACT at the time were better measures of economic advantage than innate intelligence. I have no reason to believe that this isn't still the case, especially since they're more entrenched in the system than ever.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy the notion that tests do not test relevant skills. In my long career I've noticed a strong correlation between SAT scores and academic performance as well as job performance. > I don't think the comparison to flight school is relevant enough in this context because it's a too different of a world to traditional academia. My dad kept his flight school tests for flying all sorts of airplanes. They bear a lo…

Do you also think LLM leaderboards accurately reflect the capabilities of the models being tested? If you do, then I can easily point you to numerous academic papers pointing out the various flaws in many leaderboards (from poorly designed benchmarks like bABI and the original SQuAD, to data contamination, and more). In that same way, any test, including the SAT and GRE have flaws. They can be gamed in ways similar t…

Do you think that LLM leaderboards don’t? Do you think a Llama 3 is going to beat an Opus 4.7 on any leaderboard?

The real issue is that standardized tests disenfranchise lower SES students less than any other metric.

Everyone who takes the SAT has to sit in the same room for the same amount of time answering the same questions. You can’t just pay someone else to take it for you (like essays) or select which difficulty level you take (like going to a prep school with grade inflation), or luck out in who your parents know (like recommendation letters).

Some may have better opportunities to learn the material, but, at the end of the day, you have to actually learn the material. There’s no getting around that.

As your own GRE anecdote shows: A little studying with some inexpensive books makes all the difference. Unless things have radically changed, a couple SAT or GRE test prep books are significantly less expensive than just one college textbook.

Bluntly, the reason SATs are better correlated to college performance than other measures are because of the reasons I mentioned. They strip away most of the privilege of coming from a high-SES family.

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