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Job application asked for my SAT scores

mrmarket.lol

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Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#251

Post by nsagent »

WalterBright wrote: post #183
andrecarini wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is you're equating `failing a test` to `lacking the relevant skills and knowledge to do a certain task competently`. The reality is sometimes tests in academia are just not very well made and don't really test what they are supposed to be testing, and that's usually due to multiple reasons like misaligned incentives, staffing shortages and maybe lack of resources / funding. I don't think the comparis…

I don't buy the notion that tests do not test relevant skills. In my long career I've noticed a strong correlation between SAT scores and academic performance as well as job performance. > I don't think the comparison to flight school is relevant enough in this context because it's a too different of a world to traditional academia. My dad kept his flight school tests for flying all sorts of airplanes. They bear a lo…

Do you also think LLM leaderboards accurately reflect the capabilities of the models being tested? If you do, then I can easily point you to numerous academic papers pointing out the various flaws in many leaderboards (from poorly designed benchmarks like bABI and the original SQuAD, to data contamination, and more).

In that same way, any test, including the SAT and GRE have flaws. They can be gamed in ways similar to LLM leadeboards: test prep makes you better at them. That's one of the main reasons universities moved away from SAT; they were afraid that it disenfranchised lower socioeconomic status students (and it does to some degree). The issue is that the test is positively correlated with success in an undergraduate program, so they threw out the baby with the bathwster. The real issue is that the SAT is not able to distinguish the capabilities among students to the degree it purports to.

And if you want an anecdote to match all yours, the first time I took a GRE practice test, I got a 3 on the writing. Not because I'm poor at writing, but because I didn't really know what they were looking for. After reading a test prep book, I got a 4.5 on my next practice test and a 5 on my final practice test. When I finally took the actual GRE, I got 6 on the analytical writing. Trust me, nothing changed in my writing ability over that time. In fact, I didn't even practice the skill except through those three practice tests. Clearly the test was not capable of determining my real ability to make an argument; it merely tested my ability to adapt my writing to what was supposedly being tested.

Interestingly, the vast majority of universities that got rid of the GRE requirements for PhD programs are not going back on that. Turns out that the students with the highest GRE scores are the ones most likely to drop out of their STEM PhD. [1]

[1]: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#252

Post by boring_twenties »

WalterBright wrote: post #160
jawns wrote: post #48

As a manager, there are several qualities that I value highly in an engineer, and they all happen to begin with the letter C: Competent, Consistent, Curious, Caring, and Clear Communicators. While SAT scores might act as a proxy for competency and possibly curiosity, they're not going to tell you much about whether the person is consistently reliable, whether they care about others and cooperate well, or whether thei…

I've seen what happens in engineering with those with low SAT math scores. They need others to do the math for them, or they just wing it. I remember one who was trying to reduce the noise in an electronic amplifier. He spent days trying random things. Another engineer asked what he was doing, did a quick calculation, and put in an RC circuit that solved the problem.

The problem here seems to be that the person was unwilling or unable to ask for help when they needed it, not that they don't know math per se.

I don't know how to do that either, but "winging it" is not something that would occur to me. First I'd Google it and try to figure it out. If it turns out to be nontrivial, I would just ask for help.

And I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about it. After all, those same highly educated folks need my help with e.g. git a lot more often than most software needs serious math :)

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#253

Post by margalabargala »

reaperducer wrote: post #237
margalabargala wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be able to help with that bewilderment. Imagine, you have two people. Person A knows cursive, person B does not. Person B knows the ins and outs of Newtonian physics, person A does not. Which person is smarter? Which person would the cursive test say is smarter? What you seem to have mistook for people not knowing things without shame, is people valuing knowledge not by the preponderance of its quantity but by…

The person who knows cursive can go on to learn Newtonian physics. Now he knows two things. While your supposed hero still only knows one.

The person who knows physics can go on to learn cursive, should they choose. "Knowing cursive" is not specially indicative of one's intelligence.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#254

Post by WalterBright »

boring_twenties wrote: post #252
WalterBright wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen what happens in engineering with those with low SAT math scores. They need others to do the math for them, or they just wing it. I remember one who was trying to reduce the noise in an electronic amplifier. He spent days trying random things. Another engineer asked what he was doing, did a quick calculation, and put in an RC circuit that solved the problem.

The problem here seems to be that the person was unwilling or unable to ask for help when they needed it, not that they don't know math per se. I don't know how to do that either, but "winging it" is not something that would occur to me. First I'd Google it and try to figure it out. If it turns out to be nontrivial, I would just ask for help. And I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about it. After all, those same highl…

The problem was the "engineer" did not know how to design an RC circuit, one of the simplest electronic circuits, in Electronics 101.

Would you rather pay an engineer days to fail to solve a basic problem, or pay a real engineer 15 minutes to solve it?

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#255

Post by jdkee »

delichon wrote: post #28

Last month 2,400 University of California faculty asked for admissions to resume using the SAT "to ensure foundational fluency." Of course many employers want to ensure that too, especially when college degrees don't anymore. The widening abilities gap followed the 2020 elimination of the SAT/ACT, a temporary measure that has now become a permanent vulnerability. This outcome was explicitly predicted by the Academic…

Griggs v. Duke, 401 U.S. 424 (1971).

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#256

Post by apparent »

chasd00 wrote: post #243
apparent wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4.0, what no APs? Insta-rejected. /s

If I may rant. My oldest son will be a junior in HS next year at a STEM magnet (Townview SEM in Dallas). I think even one of his electives is an AP, It’s kind of ridiculous. APs in HS seem pointless if you can’t apply the credit to your college degree plan. As if a University is going to let a STEM major out of calculus because they took the AP in HS…

Agreed. It seems like they're mostly for showcasing your ability in HS, not getting any actual credit in college.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#257

Post by WalterBright »

nsagent wrote: post #251
WalterBright wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy the notion that tests do not test relevant skills. In my long career I've noticed a strong correlation between SAT scores and academic performance as well as job performance. > I don't think the comparison to flight school is relevant enough in this context because it's a too different of a world to traditional academia. My dad kept his flight school tests for flying all sorts of airplanes. They bear a lo…

Do you also think LLM leaderboards accurately reflect the capabilities of the models being tested? If you do, then I can easily point you to numerous academic papers pointing out the various flaws in many leaderboards (from poorly designed benchmarks like bABI and the original SQuAD, to data contamination, and more). In that same way, any test, including the SAT and GRE have flaws. They can be gamed in ways similar t…

I took the GREs, I don't recall a writing section.

Anyhow, the questions were all about freshman engineering knowledge.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#258

Post by WalterBright »

hammock wrote: post #195
WalterBright wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy the notion that tests do not test relevant skills. In my long career I've noticed a strong correlation between SAT scores and academic performance as well as job performance. > I don't think the comparison to flight school is relevant enough in this context because it's a too different of a world to traditional academia. My dad kept his flight school tests for flying all sorts of airplanes. They bear a lo…

> I don't buy the notion that tests do not test relevant skills. In my long career I've noticed a strong correlation between SAT scores and academic performance as well as job performance. SAT tests intelligence (aptitude), not skills. Which is why it correlates with job performance, where intelligence can (over some time) matter as much or more than a starting point of relevant skills.

Nothing's perfect, but the SAT tests do an adequate job.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#259

Post by SoftTalker »

annzabelle wrote: post #235
zugi wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on a lot of things. If they've also applied to another college that's better suited to their ability, admitting then to a school where they'll likely fail is not really doing them a favor.

Agreed. I've seen some interesting data that kids who could've been successful premeds or engineers at their state flagship but instead eke their way into Harvard or Princeton (sports scholarship, legacy etc) will instead graduate with a flaky studies major because they couldn't cut it in their intended major and the switching costs of transferring were too high. There are downsides if you end up a small fish in a bi…

Is the actual premed or engineering coursework at Harvard or Princeton really that much more rigorous than that at a flagship state school? I'm doubtful.

Re: Job application asked for my SAT scores

#260

Post by WalterBright »

Maxatar wrote: post #234
WalterBright wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> categorically false Google sez: "The U.S. Air Force strictly requires you to complete and pass formal academic ground training before you ever touch the controls of an aircraft" They're not going to risk an aircraft on an incompetent student. > A teacher can be brilliant in the classroom yet stumble on a standardized certification exam full of pedagogical jargon I stand by my statement. > logical fallacy A implies…

So you are making things up... thanks for confirming that. While I appreciate that you reviewed what Google "sez"... you have misunderstood the relevant context which is that the U.S. Air Force also requires that you complete Initial Flight Training (IFT) before you start the Air Force's own formal training program (UPT). In IFT you will not be required to pass ground school before you get to fly. Furthermore, even i…

Ground school comes first at IFT https://www.baseops.net/militarypilot/usaf_ift.html

Note that a tree implies it is made of wood. If you find a stick of wood, odds are it came from a tree.

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