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White House delays US voting-machine vulnerability report

reuters.com

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Re: White House delays US voting-machine vulnerability report

#131

Post by tzs »

skinfaxi wrote: post #121
tzs wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is implementing that in a way that doesn't disenfranchise a lot of people. Most or all countries that have the kind of robust national ID system for such a system also make sure it is easy for every citizen to get the necessary ID. Such a system could be added to the US without too much disruption if we did it gradually, say making it only apply to people born after 2030 so there is time to get all the su…

Only US citizens are allowed to vote. How do you control for that without ID of some sort?

There are checks such as when registering to vote. They are not rigorous checks because rigorous proof of citizenship has not been needed by most US citizens for most the country's existence, and there is no way to rapidly switch to a rigorous system without disenfranchising a large number of older citizens and poorer citizens.

Registrations of individual registrants can be challenged and then a more detailed examination is done. Both Republican and Democrat local or state parties keep an eye on registrations and challenge any the think are bogus.

Extensive statistical checks after elections by numerous statisticians (and by most major political parties) shows that this system is working fine, so there is no justification for rushing a transition to a more rigorous system. There is time to design a system that will work for all citizens.

We could get a long way there by just grandfathering in everyone who voted in the last 10 years, and making sure there is extensive help going forward for anyone who cannot afford the cost of getting the necessary documents to get the new ID or who cannot get those documents.

Re: White House delays US voting-machine vulnerability report

#132

Post by tzs »

rayiner wrote: post #96
FireBeyond wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gore never actually tried to get those counted in his favor. And how could you know? Whereas of course the Bush campaign was absolutely eager to ensure every vote, including those for Gore, were verified, right? > The correct outcome then would have been re-voting, not a recount. I do agree with you on this, entirely. Although even if that was the plan, the state of Florida is not exactly known for making poll acce…

> Whereas of course the Bush campaign We're not talking about what the Bush campaign wanted. The point is that not even the Gore campaign argued that the double votes should be counted. So they're irrelevant.

They are irrelevant in the sense that there is no legal means to correct them.

They are relevant to the question of who did the voters actually wanted to win, which while not a legally relevant question is interesting. The statistical reports I've seen say that around 2000 of the Buchanan votes were very likely intended as Gore votes.

Re: White House delays US voting-machine vulnerability report

#133

Post by jmward01 »

Timon3 wrote: post #123
skinfaxi wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only US citizens are allowed to vote. How do you control for that without ID of some sort?

How did the US solve this issue during every election until now?

This comment shows exactly why I made the original post. This assumes there is a problem to be solved. The flat out fact is that it hasn't been a problem. The real problem is that politicians say there is an issue with no proof in order to get into grand debates about how to solve the nonexistent problem all the while creating -real- problems of disenfranchising actual legitimate voters when they implement solutions to the nonexistant problem. The orders of magnitude of people denied their rightful ability to vote compared to the fraud in voting are not even funny. Yes, fraud does happen. It is almost never a real issue but programs to 'fix' the fraud are a real problem.

Re: White House delays US voting-machine vulnerability report

#134

Post by jmyeet »

tzs wrote: post #42
rayiner wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WaPo did a recount many years later and found that Bush would have won with further counting. (EDIT: It was a CNN meta-analysis, not WaPo: https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/31/politics/bush-gore-2000-elect... ) Gore attempted stochastic cheating in that election. There were a large number of uncountable votes because of incompletely punched out cards. That wasn’t a problem because, statistically, the errors would be random…

What about the butterfly ballots? The errors those likely caused would not be randomly distributed.

The butteryfly ballot was an approved but confusing ballot that almost certainly cost Gore the election. But what is the remedy? There's no other choice but to have a better ballot next time. "The voters were confused by a legal and approved ballot" can't be the basis to overturn an election or it'll never end.

Another good example of this is how Alaska adopted ranked choice voting. In 2022, the 2 Republican candidates got more combined votes than the Democrat who ultimately won [1]. Do you think That was the intent of the voters? Almost certainly not but the electorate just didn't understand RCV and enough people only ranked 1.

In 2024 there was only a single Republican on the ballot so it wasn't an issue [2].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_United_States_House_of_Re...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_House_of_Re...

Re: White House delays US voting-machine vulnerability report

#135

Post by tomhow »

baggy_trough wrote: post #52
pclowes wrote: post #44

Faith in elections and election integrity is incredibly important. Unsubstantiated claims of election fraud should be punished severely. Politicians who baselessly erode confidence in elections without providing timely evidence should be ineligible for political office at least and potentially tried for treason.

[flagged]

We've asked you several times not to post flamebait on HN. You've been here long enough to know what the guidelines are. If you keep posting like this we'll have to assume you want to be banned.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: White House delays US voting-machine vulnerability report

#136

Post by baggy_trough »

afavour wrote: post #63
baggy_trough wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

So, like I said in my previous comment, any moves to require ID in order to vote should be paired with comprehensive programs to make sure ID is free and easily available to all eligible voters. You haven’t considered why it isn’t? > recklessly casual I say again: there's absolutely no evidence that fraudulent voting has come anywhere close to changing the outcome of an election. Or had any statistical relevance at a…

[flagged]

Re: White House delays US voting-machine vulnerability report

#137

Post by baggy_trough »

plagiarist wrote: post #75
baggy_trough wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Voter ID is a "solution" to a nonissue problem of a handful of people casting votes illegally. Everyone clamoring to implement voter ID is a disingenuous liar with the motive of disenfranchising citizens. Disenfranchising large numbers of people is a far greater problem for faith in elections and election integrity.

Essentially all other countries disagree with you. Why is that?

Re: White House delays US voting-machine vulnerability report

#138

Post by afavour »

baggy_trough wrote: post #136
afavour wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, like I said in my previous comment, any moves to require ID in order to vote should be paired with comprehensive programs to make sure ID is free and easily available to all eligible voters. You haven’t considered why it isn’t? > recklessly casual I say again: there's absolutely no evidence that fraudulent voting has come anywhere close to changing the outcome of an election. Or had any statistical relevance at a…

[flagged]

The USA doesn't have one voting system. Each state has their own. Perhaps you could explain how "progressives" rigged the system in a state like Georgia, an overwhelmingly Republican state with a Republican governor?

Re: White House delays US voting-machine vulnerability report

#139

Post by FeloniousHam »

jmyeet wrote: post #134
tzs wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the butterfly ballots? The errors those likely caused would not be randomly distributed.

The butteryfly ballot was an approved but confusing ballot that almost certainly cost Gore the election. But what is the remedy? There's no other choice but to have a better ballot next time. "The voters were confused by a legal and approved ballot" can't be the basis to overturn an election or it'll never end. Another good example of this is how Alaska adopted ranked choice voting. In 2022, the 2 Republican candidat…

Approval voting is the only workable RCV.
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