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Satellite reveals immense scale of GPS signal tampering

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Re: Satellite reveals immense scale of GPS signal tampering

#51

Post by azernik »

themafia wrote: post #34
Animats wrote: post #16

Ops.group published a report on GPS spoofing back in 2024.[1] It's bad. Ops.group is an organization for dispatchers and pilots, the people who decide the routes aircraft take and fly them. They are really angry about it. Key concerns: - The greatest safety concern is the degraded functionality of the Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS). The system does not operate correctly after spoofing, even if GPS coverage is…

> spoofing I don't understand how "spoof-to" works. If you have to mimic a satellite then isn't everyone going to get a different location? Unless you're tracking a specific target how can you intentionally spoof them to a desired location? I'd assume the best you could do is create a fixed offset. > The military wants to go mostly inertial and is working on better inertial systems. Given the drift rate this is an id…

Clock bias.

Because the clocks internal to GNSS receivers are not that accurate, if they're not at the "targeted" location they'll see that all satellites are off by a given time offset, and think that their clock is just off by that much.

Re: Satellite reveals immense scale of GPS signal tampering

#52

Post by thenthenthen »

beAbU wrote: post #48
unsnap_biceps wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Veritasium did a video a few weeks ago about scientists trying to figure out where a space based GPS jamming signal came from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz23G_UXCGA

I've stopped watching Veritasium after the PE buyout. All of a sudden I'm deeply suspicous of their content and I'm left wondering if there is some Ulterior Motive that we are not aware of.

Always had a strange feeling watching that channel, something feels off somehow. Anyway, didnt the video also mention GPS basically has the same capability (to be weaponised)? Seems trivial and logical… its a transmitter.. just transmit noise or spoofed signals. Another thing I see pop up here in the comments is about encryption. Critical infra usually is not encrypted because you need to be able to receive it critical conditions, simple means. These infras have been steadily been replaced by ‘hightech secure’ stuff in the west (like c2000…) but here in Asia i can still get an weather-fax image using a 5 dollar radio.

Re: Satellite reveals immense scale of GPS signal tampering

#53

Post by kilroy123 »

kitchi wrote: post #9

Is GNSS jamming really as bad a problem as the article makes it seem? The article itself reads like guerilla advertising so I'm inclined not to take it at face value.

In some parts of the world, it's getting bad. My partner is Lithuanian, and she/we go back there often. They're having a lot of issues there because of Russia.

Re: Satellite reveals immense scale of GPS signal tampering

#54

Post by christophilus »

_moof wrote: post #23
Animats wrote: post #16

Ops.group published a report on GPS spoofing back in 2024.[1] It's bad. Ops.group is an organization for dispatchers and pilots, the people who decide the routes aircraft take and fly them. They are really angry about it. Key concerns: - The greatest safety concern is the degraded functionality of the Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS). The system does not operate correctly after spoofing, even if GPS coverage is…

> Before this, everybody in the industry thought GPS solved the aerial navigation problem. Many people in industry believed this but no one with a brain ever did. The vulnerability of GPS has been cause for concern for a long time, and the decimation of the VOR network has always had a lot of people up in arms.

It seems like we have enough satellites in space that are giving off enough unique signals that we could put together a device that solves the GPS problem without needing GPS itself. I wonder what it would take.

Re: Satellite reveals immense scale of GPS signal tampering

#56

Post by [deleted] »

themafia wrote: post #34
Animats wrote: post #16

Ops.group published a report on GPS spoofing back in 2024.[1] It's bad. Ops.group is an organization for dispatchers and pilots, the people who decide the routes aircraft take and fly them. They are really angry about it. Key concerns: - The greatest safety concern is the degraded functionality of the Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS). The system does not operate correctly after spoofing, even if GPS coverage is…

> spoofing I don't understand how "spoof-to" works. If you have to mimic a satellite then isn't everyone going to get a different location? Unless you're tracking a specific target how can you intentionally spoof them to a desired location? I'd assume the best you could do is create a fixed offset. > The military wants to go mostly inertial and is working on better inertial systems. Given the drift rate this is an id…

[deleted]

Re: Satellite reveals immense scale of GPS signal tampering

#57

Post by eqvinox »

kitchi wrote: post #9

Is GNSS jamming really as bad a problem as the article makes it seem? The article itself reads like guerilla advertising so I'm inclined not to take it at face value.

https://app.media.ccc.de/v/39c3-who-cares-about-the-baltic-j... [video]

39C3: "Who cares about the Baltic Jammer?" / "Terrestrial Navigation in the Baltic Sea Region"

First few minutes give a summary, remainder is about DLR's attempt to fix it.

Also, https://gpsjam.org/ (ADS-B data from planes, hence limited coverage area.)

Re: Satellite reveals immense scale of GPS signal tampering

#58

Post by throw0101a »

15155 wrote: post #30
stavros wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An even bigger WTF is why GPS data isn't signed with some official key so spoofing is impossible.

Because an attacker can just replay legitimate broadcasts with slightly skewed time and origin and introduce huge errors into the fix.

>> An even bigger WTF is why GPS data isn't signed with some official key so spoofing is impossible.

> Because an attacker can just replay legitimate broadcasts with slightly skewed time and origin and introduce huge errors into the fix.

Galileo uses a signing system (Timed Efficient Stream Loss-Tolerant Authentication, TESLA) to protect the authenticity of its messages, including preventing replays:

* https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.php/Galileo_Open_Servic...

* https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc4082 (TESLA)

* https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~tygar/papers/TESLA_broadca...

* https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~adrian/projects/stream/node1.html

Re: Satellite reveals immense scale of GPS signal tampering

#60

Post by willtemperley »

> Gunning says that, due to the altitude of the Pulsar-0 satellite, the map may not truthfully reflect where jamming is worst for users on the ground

Right. So have they employed ground truthing to quantify this uncertainty? Truth was important when I went to GIS school.

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