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Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

reuters.com

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Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#351

Post by lazyasciiart »

KPGv2 wrote: post #349
WalterBright wrote: post #324

I'd ban all technology in the classroom. What works is chalkboard and chalk, pencil and paper. You'll never get strong by watching a video of people lifting weights. Similarly, you'll never understand math by watching a video or having an AI do the work for you. And, somehow, writing out the words and equations by hand is very effective for learning. https://www.holdenluntz.com/artists/keystone-press-agency/al...

> I'd ban all technology in the classroom. What works is chalkboard and chalk, pencil and paper. You've prohibited technology and then listed four technologies. "Technology" needs a more concrete definition. Calculators? Computers? TVs? Overhead projectors? Musical instruments?

They appear to be equating technology with products that did not exist when they were in elementary school.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#352

Post by nineplay »

WalterBright wrote: post #331
tacomagick wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think your example is at all fair. You can definitely learn from the way AI solves a math question.

> You can definitely learn from the way AI solves a math question. Challenge: learn some math from AI. Sleep on it. Duplicate it on paper the next day.

I never understood P vs NP until I say down with AI and just kept asking for clarification after clarification until it finally clicked.

AI, used well, isn't just 'teach me this' its 'teach me this and answer all my dumb questions until I understand it'.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#353

Post by bobro »

enaaem wrote: post #170

Buddhism identifies three stages of wisdom: 1. Wisdom through dogma. 2. Wisdom through reasoning. 3. Wisdom through experience. AI is just stage 1. Instant and easily digestible. Traditional learning forces you to go to Stage 2, because you are often given too much information and you need to compress it to memorise it. And the best way to compress it, is by finding some kind of logical structure in the information.

I feel like in the context of AI in education, "wisdom through dogma" still doesn't capture it. It's not even wisdom nor dogma, but something in the form of wisdom developed through something in the form of dogma. "Wisdom" implies you actually believe it and embody it, but students don't believe it or embody it as much as just pass it along to finish the assignment. "Dogma" implies there's a coherent logic of accepted doctrine, but the output is more a stretched and morphed version of the most generalized doctrine imaginable.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#354

Post by doctorpangloss »

NDlurker wrote: post #339
simonw wrote: post #56

> Pupils from first through seventh grade, aged 6 to 13, should as a general rule not be using AI, while those in lower secondary school, aged 14 to 16, can cautiously adopt tools under teachers' supervision, the government said. Sounds right to me. Kids under 13 need to learn to read, write and comprehend text. Generative AI is not going to help them with those skills. They can play with AI at home, and after 13 the…

I don't understand what the controversy is in the US about banning phones in schools. I graduated highschool in the mid 2000s and cell phones were just starting to gain adoption in my town in the last couple years I was in school. I don't recall anyone using a phone in class, but Game Boys were definitely not allowed. I was surprised when I found out that kids were regularly on their phones in class. Why was that eve…

a large florida school district banned cell phones in schools, and after two years, the total benefit that was measured to be likely caused by this was +0.9 percentiles on their standardized achievement test.

in comparison, if you study ONE HOUR for the SAT, you gain approximately 0.9 percentiles on the test.

how do dozens if not low hundreds of hours of time you are not spending on your phone at school translate to only the same benefit as doing ONE hour of studying? well, if there is no mechanism, then yeah, that's what happens.

so why was it ever allowed? either tests are severely limited in what they measure, or the impact of cell phones on education is actually quite small. it cannot be both.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#355

Post by bobro »

ransom1538 wrote: post #51
bko wrote: post #13

Im confused, are there tasks given to 6 to 13 year old to use AI? In the classroom, are they just throwing gpt in front of them? Is that the modern equivalent of watching a vhs? Or do they have homework to vibe code something or given some prompts to ask at home and save somewhere? Serious question, what does this mean?

Teacher uses AI, creates lesson plan -> AI creates assignments -> Teacher gives assignments to students -> Students use AI to do assignment -> Teacher grades with AI -> Principal uses AI to monitor teachers progress. This is happening at schools nationwide. It is unstoppable at this point. It's a bizarre charade.

> eacher uses AI, creates lesson plan -> AI creates assignments -> Teacher gives assignments to students |

Up to this point, it's actually completely fine. LLMs do an excellent job up to here.

> | Teacher grades with AI -> Principal uses AI to monitor teachers progress.

Again, this is probably mostly fine. Assuming they are taking it seriously, this is also fine.

> Students use AI to do assignment

This is singularly the section of the loop that AI has no place in. The ENTIRE point of the education system is for the students to learn how to use their brains to accomplish tasks.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#356

Post by WalterBright »

kcrwfrd_ wrote: post #348
WalterBright wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can definitely learn from the way AI solves a math question. Challenge: learn some math from AI. Sleep on it. Duplicate it on paper the next day.

It’s not math but I’m using AI to help study and learn DSA. I’m finding it helpful. But yeah you need to make attempts to apply what you’re learning and answer questions on your own. You can’t simply watch problems being solved (whether by an AI or a person) and retain it.

Many times I was sure I understood something by watching it. Then, when it came time to do it, I realized I didn't understand at all.

And it's not just for math. Try it with learning to light a fire without matches. I watched the survival experts on "Alone" fail at that, and fail at building a fireplace, and fail at building bear proof food storage, fail at archery, fail at fishing, and so on. (I'm not claiming to be a survival expert, I wouldn't last a week on that show.)

No work equals no learn.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#357

Post by NDlurker »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #354
NDlurker wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what the controversy is in the US about banning phones in schools. I graduated highschool in the mid 2000s and cell phones were just starting to gain adoption in my town in the last couple years I was in school. I don't recall anyone using a phone in class, but Game Boys were definitely not allowed. I was surprised when I found out that kids were regularly on their phones in class. Why was that eve…

a large florida school district banned cell phones in schools, and after two years, the total benefit that was measured to be likely caused by this was +0.9 percentiles on their standardized achievement test. in comparison, if you study ONE HOUR for the SAT, you gain approximately 0.9 percentiles on the test. how do dozens if not low hundreds of hours of time you are not spending on your phone at school translate to…

Why was it allowed in the first place because why was it treated any different than other distractions in the classroom?

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#359

Post by throwaway2037 »

bendriv wrote: post #184
bko wrote: post #13

Im confused, are there tasks given to 6 to 13 year old to use AI? In the classroom, are they just throwing gpt in front of them? Is that the modern equivalent of watching a vhs? Or do they have homework to vibe code something or given some prompts to ask at home and save somewhere? Serious question, what does this mean?

I have three children in that age span in a Norwegian school. For the ages 10-13, ChatGPT and the like has frequently been used in the classroom to help with the cold start problem when doing writing assignments, and for getting feedback on written work before handing in to the teachers. Also frequently used as a brainstorming tool or for writing whole speaches or presentations that should be held in front of the cla…

Thank you for the first hand feedback. I am assuming that you did similar assignments at the same age. Yet, you did not have the same tools. When I think back on my own LLM-free educational experiences, brainstorming was a hard mental skill to master. Some might argue it is one of the hardest as it requires some imagination, then critical thinking skills to filter the ideas. Can you comment about this? To be clear, I am trolling/baiting with my question.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#360

Post by throwaway2037 »

setopt wrote: post #83
vorticalbox wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well one can no longer search for information in the big search engines without it just giving you the answer. This ruins “search and topic and write about it”

I guess Norwegian schools will have to use smaller / alternative search engines now?

Or they can disable "AI" from the search results to only get "traditional" search results.
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