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Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

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Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cost could very well be in the millions for a single project How did you come to this number? Something simple like giving the binaries with docs doesn't cost that much money. I'm not sure what you are referring to. > how many hours of gameplay does that actually buy? You seem to confuse the cost of continued support with the cost of giving it to the community. Nobody is asking publishers to continue support wh…

>> You're suggesting a subsidy for gamers which everyone else would to pay for >No, that's not how it works. Not even close. As far as I can tell, legislation which enables you to play a game in perpetuity instead of for a limited time will likely reduce the amount of tax revenue your gaming-related activities generate. A useful metric to focus on here is the cost per hour of entertainment. The price of the game itse…

> legislation which enables you to play a game in perpetuity instead of for a limited time will likely reduce the amount of tax revenue your gaming-related activities generate

How so? If I'm sure that a game is not going to die, I will be more willing to pay for it. The more such games exist, the more money I will be willing to spend on them. Hence more taxes from me. Otherwise I will stick to older games that don't have this problem, which will bring less taxes from me because of the cost.

> cost of your gaming itself would be subsidized

By whom? I know there are currently tax returns (or exemptions is more correct term probably) for gaming companies. But how does having end of life plans change this?

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#312
post #53

As is stated in the article, but is not clear just from the headline, this was not an unexpected outcome from the initiative. The Commission did not seek discussions with SKG, and spent virtually all of their time with the gaming industry lobby groups. SKG was prepared for this, and their intention has been to join up with the group putting together the new Digital Fairness Act, since the objective there is very simi…

I'd say this shows how corrupted elites are. If the "democratic" entity spends all the time with lobbyists, and not the initiative which started the discussion, this speaks volumes.

Who is the elite here? The people nominated for the commission is by the national government of said country if anything blame the countries picking such self serving citizens to be part of the commission.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#313
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think regulation is a superweapon that should mostly be used in cases where there can be severe long-term damage (physical and health dangers, loans, etc.) or in cases where what it regulates is simple and easy to comply with. For example, it makes a lot of sense to regulate gasoline so there won't be any lead in it. It also makes sense to standartize and simplify loans which can also have severe impact on people.…

> If it would be so important for players to ensure their games stay alive, they'd just stop buying these games and they'd apply pressure on devs to do that Unfortunately, it only works on paper. In reality publishers can add stuff after the release when people already paid money for it (classic bait and switch). So buying only "good" games does not guarantee that they will stay that way. Also, we did try "applying p…

Most of the discussions I've seen about this disregard the fact that on paper it's all nice, but in practice it's a rabbit-hole of constraints. Developers often use 3rd party SDKs and services that can render the game useless if they are not included is just one concern, and many times they cannot be technically or legally included in client versions for players.

Personally, for all I care, even as a game-dev, I don't mind if there'd be a law that would allow players to modify and even reverse engineers previous versions of the game for the sole purpose of playing the game.

This kind of regulation demands nothing from the game developers, doesn't force them to comply with anything, and doesn't incur any additional costs. Maybe there'd be some tiny loss of revenue, but it's arguably miniscule if the games are already abandoned.

It pretty much already happening with games like the C&C Generals that have pirated abandonware versions.

Most of the demands I've seen from the SKG crowd demand actual laws that define what developers must provide players, instead they should just legalize reverse engineering.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#314
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it would be so important for players to ensure their games stay alive, they'd just stop buying these games and they'd apply pressure on devs to do that Unfortunately, it only works on paper. In reality publishers can add stuff after the release when people already paid money for it (classic bait and switch). So buying only "good" games does not guarantee that they will stay that way. Also, we did try "applying p…

Most of the discussions I've seen about this disregard the fact that on paper it's all nice, but in practice it's a rabbit-hole of constraints. Developers often use 3rd party SDKs and services that can render the game useless if they are not included is just one concern, and many times they cannot be technically or legally included in client versions for players. Personally, for all I care, even as a game-dev, I don'…

> Developers often use 3rd party SDKs and services that can render the game useless if they are not included

That is indeed a case, and potential solutions has been discussed. The main idea is that games that have already been made do not need to comply with this, so they don't need to change anything. Moreover, some videogames have already been released with middleware stripped out of them. From the top of my head: Doom 3, Blietzkrieg. So you can work around that.

> I don't mind if there'd be a law that would allow players to modify and even reverse engineers previous versions of the game for the sole purpose of playing the game

To my knowledge, you can already do that in most jurisdictions. That's why there are a lot of decompilation projects that started in recent years.

> This kind of regulation demands nothing from the game developers

The problem is that for games with online components you also require server binaries, which you don't always have access to. So developers would need to provide at least those binaries. So unfortunately even in this case there will be something that developers must do.

> C&C Generals

That's a good example because EA made source code available last year for most C&C games. So people have been improving unofficial versions.

> Most of the demands I've seen from the SKG crowd demand actual laws that define what developers must provide players

SKG itself does not demand anything specific, that's the idea. People who support the initiative do provide some potential options, but I don't think they are forcing it on anyone.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#315
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How is this relevant? I still want to be able to play older games 10 years from now. The cost does not matter. I would even pay more money for the guarantee that the game will be always playable. You can already do that! Contact the rightsholders and negotiate with them. It'll probably be relatively cheap to buy an EOL game. >Nobody suggests to lower the prices... Do you even understand what SKG is about? I'm not mi…

> Contact the rightsholders and negotiate with them We tried that. That didn't work. > Making the product last longer Once again, nobody is asking that. So you are misunderstanding SKG. > tunnel-vision That is very ironic and indeed dismissive.

>We tried that. That didn't work.

Ah yes, because businesses just love to turn down free money.

>Once again, nobody is asking that. So you are misunderstanding SKG.

If SKG really does not want games to remain playable after EOL, they're certainly piss-poor communicators. I thought the whole point was to "stop killing games", i.e. make them last longer.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be arguing under the presupposition that there are two equal entities, industry lobbies and everyone else, and somehow that division of viewpoints gets equal consideration from the governing body. The other person is arguing that those two entities are not equal and should not have equal weight in affecting the decisions of the European commission. Calling them malicious for having a different view of the…

[flagged]

> Why are you attributing this to me

Because you wrote:

> If the opposition simply seeks to silence you, rather than to argue against you, how are they not malicious?

in response to:

> The industry should only be allowed to comment after the laws have been written and fulfill the goals of European citizens.

Where it's clear from your framing of an "opposition trying to silence you" that you think the industry lobby has at least some right to be heard before the council votes on policy. Which is something the statement you are replying to clearly doesn't agree with. And rather than accept that there is a disagreement of the purpose of the council or the acceptability of industry lobbyists influencing law or what not, you just frame it as a moral evil (maliciousness) on the part of the other commenter. A good faith reading of the comment you replied to has so many non-malicious interpretations.

Side note: if your comment implies something hard enough (intentionally or not) that multiple people are "windmill-tilting" against something that you think you aren't saying, it deserves some reflection on whether you may have miscommunicated your point.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Contact the rightsholders and negotiate with them We tried that. That didn't work. > Making the product last longer Once again, nobody is asking that. So you are misunderstanding SKG. > tunnel-vision That is very ironic and indeed dismissive.

>We tried that. That didn't work. Ah yes, because businesses just love to turn down free money. >Once again, nobody is asking that. So you are misunderstanding SKG. If SKG really does not want games to remain playable after EOL, they're certainly piss-poor communicators. I thought the whole point was to "stop killing games", i.e. make them last longer.

> because businesses just love to turn down free money

Unfortunately, yes. Example - try getting publishing rights to No One Lives Forever franchise (GOG already tried that). It's not rare for publishers to sit on their IPs without doing anything with them. And it's not exclusive to videogames as well.

> make them last longer

You can look at it differently. "Last longer" can mean "getting support from the publisher for longer period of time". Nobody demands this. Or it can mean "have an EOL plan", but then it's a weird way to phrase that. But yes, this meaning is the one that SKG uses.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#318
post #302
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't have to be a monthly payment. If you can give me an EoL in the store page and sell it to me as a license, I'm happy. What sucks is that games currently get killed when the corpo decides. Without regulation, as with everything else, it'll slowly but surely go towards: "We released MyGame 3 a month ago, sales aren't looking great, announce EoL for MyGame 1 we released 6 years ago to get those bums off it." (or…

>If you can give me an EoL in the store page and sell it to me as a license, I'm happy The goal here is to disallow this, as it's obviously what everyone would do if allowed to. They'd just sell every game with 1 year EoL and keep the servers running however long they feel like.

Ok yeah, that'd be kinda stupid.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most match-based FPS don't do that anymore, as it's susceptible to DDOS. Whether a LAN-like mode is otherwise still feasible/acceptable by todays game quality standards is debatable. How is LAN susceptible to DDoS? I think you're thinking of P2P, unless you're worried about your LAN buddies trolling you I guess. Regardless, whether the quality of LAN games is good or not is wholly irrelevant to the SKG initiative.…

> How is LAN susceptible to DDoS? I think you're thinking of P2P, unless you're worried about your LAN buddies trolling you I guess. I didn't say that. Games don't to P2P anymore because it's susceptible to DDOS. LAN as alternative to Internet P2P may have seperate drawbacks (but may obviously disregard DDOS protection). > The legislation is being discussed largely because of what EA, Activision, and Ubisoft do to ga…

> Then propose some legislation that actually deals with that...

SKG and the people signing the petitions aren't legislators, the entire point of this initiative is to actually talk to legislators. It's not their job to propose a hyper-specific law on day 1, it's the job of the legislators to do so. And so far, it has been met with nothing but bad faith attacks on things they have never claimed to want, such as...

> ...the cost of retrofitting games ...

SKG has made it abundantly clear that they don't want any kind of law or legislation to be applied retroactively. There would be absolutely no retrofitting forced on anyone, it would only affect new games released after legislation passes. Similarly to how you didn't have to re-manufacture your old phone model to add a USB-C port into it, you don't have to do anything with your already-released games.

> ... the incredible entitlement from the customerbase

People expect to buy a product and to be able to use it however they'd like, without getting scammed and having it yanked from them down the line? How entitled of them!

> And all that just to apparently be fine with buggy, laggy, borderline playable versions of the game, with worse matchmaking UX.

Again, how is that anyone's problem other than the person who bought the game and is presumably happy to keep playing it? If it has reached EOL, then it's better the game remain playable somehow, regardless of how buggy or bad of an experience it is, than to just fully lose access to it. I'd say no experience is worse than a buggy one.

> I can run very few games that I bought as a child, because I don't have a CD-ROM drive or a Windows 98 machine anymore.

You can extremely easily emulate all of these, including on your phone, and hell Windows has native support for many games with their compatibility modes out of the gate, so yes, you could indeed play games from the 90s if you still wanted to. We've still got Doom (1993) being ported to anything that has a transistor in it to this day. In fact, looking over a list of 90s games, pretty much all of them are still playable! Monkey Island (1990!), Wolfenstein 3D ('92), Myst, the OG Warcraft, Quake is still being played competitively to this day, Civ 2, the original Diablo, the list goes on for a while and many of these games have healthy playerbases to this day.

Ever heard of GOG (Good Old Games)? It's in the name, their entire business is predicated on making retro games runnable on modern systems, and oftentimes even improving on them massively by pre-patching community patches and things of that nature.

As a sidenote, looking at lists of old games it's quite depressing how much we've lost in more recent times. I can and do still boot up games from my childhood, and many of them with vibrant & healthy communities to this day, yet there are newer games from a few short years ago that are now completely dead because the devs decided to pull the plug on them. AoE II "Enhanced" Edition doesn't even have LAN functionality without first connecting to their servers! The original game that this is a remaster of you can still play today with literally 0 issues! That is the exact issue with this crap, we're pretending like it's impossible to build games with longevity in mind when we've been doing it for the better part of 2 decades already.

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