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Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

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Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#301
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is good policy if you're only willing to list the benefits, and not acknowledge that there are associated costs. Perhaps the audience that would consume these old games simply won't be big enough.

But we are interested in benefits first and foremost since we are consumers, i.e. people who use the product. Regarding the costs, nobody dismisses them. But saying that the costs of giving the game to community are tremendous is simply misguided. Developers and publishers have been doing this since the beginning, it's not something new. The reason why publishers don't do this is also very clear - they want us to pla…

> But we are interested in benefits first and foremost since we are consumers

We're only consumers when we consume, but that is not the extent of our participation in society. To optimize for consumption is a shortcut to certain doom.

> But saying that the costs of giving the game to community are tremendous is simply misguided

Tremendous, no. Significant? Yes. The cost could very well be in the millions for a single project, but how many hours of gameplay does that actually buy? Do those later hours come at a significantly increased cost?

>The reason why publishers don't do this is also very clear - they want us to play their newer games and spend money there. They are not doing this because it's hard for me. They just want to maximize the profit, that's it.

I get why someone who plays games would want this. But as someone who doesn't play games, why on earth would I want to encourage this? It defies most basic economic theory.

You're suggesting a subsidy for gamers which everyone else would to pay for in the form of slower economic activity and lower tax revenues. I do not want to subsidize your games.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#302
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > you can just make your game into a service requiring a monthly payment > > Ah, yes the simple option of "completely tank your playerbase". And gamers at large shouldn't pretend that they are going to be shelling out money for subscriptions. There is a reason that even most MMOs switched away from mandatory subscription pricing (apart from the outlier of WOW), and it's not to make the publishers filthy reach, but…

Doesn't have to be a monthly payment. If you can give me an EoL in the store page and sell it to me as a license, I'm happy. What sucks is that games currently get killed when the corpo decides. Without regulation, as with everything else, it'll slowly but surely go towards: "We released MyGame 3 a month ago, sales aren't looking great, announce EoL for MyGame 1 we released 6 years ago to get those bums off it." (or…

>If you can give me an EoL in the store page and sell it to me as a license, I'm happy

The goal here is to disallow this, as it's obviously what everyone would do if allowed to.

They'd just sell every game with 1 year EoL and keep the servers running however long they feel like.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is LAN susceptible to DDoS? I think you're thinking of P2P, unless you're worried about your LAN buddies trolling you I guess. I didn't say that. Games don't to P2P anymore because it's susceptible to DDOS. LAN as alternative to Internet P2P may have seperate drawbacks (but may obviously disregard DDOS protection). > The legislation is being discussed largely because of what EA, Activision, and Ubisoft do to ga…

> the cost of retrofitting games for all developers of games with any online component As it has been said many times already, the initiative does not propose any "retrofitting" for existing games. > the incredible entitlement from the customerbase The ability to be able to play the game in the future is not entitlement, it's a normal thing. If you car stops working because the authentication servers are down, do you…

> The ability to be able to play the game in the future is not entitlement, it's a normal thing

No it isn't. The cost per hour of games is already incredibly low compared to most other paid forms of entertainment.

How is it not entitled to insist that these super attractive prices should be even lower still?

> Why should games be different?

Why should games be different from a movie ticket or a streaming subscription?

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#304
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we are interested in benefits first and foremost since we are consumers, i.e. people who use the product. Regarding the costs, nobody dismisses them. But saying that the costs of giving the game to community are tremendous is simply misguided. Developers and publishers have been doing this since the beginning, it's not something new. The reason why publishers don't do this is also very clear - they want us to pla…

> But we are interested in benefits first and foremost since we are consumers We're only consumers when we consume, but that is not the extent of our participation in society. To optimize for consumption is a shortcut to certain doom. > But saying that the costs of giving the game to community are tremendous is simply misguided Tremendous, no. Significant? Yes. The cost could very well be in the millions for a single…

> The cost could very well be in the millions for a single project

How did you come to this number? Something simple like giving the binaries with docs doesn't cost that much money. I'm not sure what you are referring to.

> how many hours of gameplay does that actually buy?

You seem to confuse the cost of continued support with the cost of giving it to the community. Nobody is asking publishers to continue support when they don't want to.

> But as someone who doesn't play games, why on earth would I want to encourage this?

You are not expected to support this if you don't care about it... But don't act surprised when you find out that some people do play games and they do care about them.

> You're suggesting a subsidy for gamers which everyone else would to pay for

No, that's not how it works. Not even close.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#305
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the cost of retrofitting games for all developers of games with any online component As it has been said many times already, the initiative does not propose any "retrofitting" for existing games. > the incredible entitlement from the customerbase The ability to be able to play the game in the future is not entitlement, it's a normal thing. If you car stops working because the authentication servers are down, do you…

> The ability to be able to play the game in the future is not entitlement, it's a normal thing No it isn't. The cost per hour of games is already incredibly low compared to most other paid forms of entertainment. How is it not entitled to insist that these super attractive prices should be even lower still? > Why should games be different? Why should games be different from a movie ticket or a streaming subscription…

> The cost per hour of games is already incredibly low compared to most other paid forms of entertainment.

How is this relevant? I still want to be able to play older games 10 years from now. The cost does not matter. I would even pay more money for the guarantee that the game will be always playable.

> How is it not entitled to insist that these super attractive prices should be even lower still?

Nobody suggests to lower the prices... Do you even understand what SKG is about?

> Why should games be different from a movie ticket or a streaming subscription?

Because you can buy movies on physical media and watch them whenever you want. With games that have online component that's not always the case anymore.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#307
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ability to be able to play the game in the future is not entitlement, it's a normal thing No it isn't. The cost per hour of games is already incredibly low compared to most other paid forms of entertainment. How is it not entitled to insist that these super attractive prices should be even lower still? > Why should games be different? Why should games be different from a movie ticket or a streaming subscription…

> The cost per hour of games is already incredibly low compared to most other paid forms of entertainment. How is this relevant? I still want to be able to play older games 10 years from now. The cost does not matter. I would even pay more money for the guarantee that the game will be always playable. > How is it not entitled to insist that these super attractive prices should be even lower still? Nobody suggests to…

>How is this relevant? I still want to be able to play older games 10 years from now. The cost does not matter. I would even pay more money for the guarantee that the game will be always playable.

You can already do that! Contact the rightsholders and negotiate with them. It'll probably be relatively cheap to buy an EOL game.

>Nobody suggests to lower the prices... Do you even understand what SKG is about?

I'm not misunderstanding anything, you are failing to consider basic economics.

Making the product last longer is effectively indistinguishable from making it cheaper in the context of the EU.

But I do get why a bunch of people seem to dismiss SKG as "childish". I didn't start from that point of view, but the commenters here certainly have me convinced with their tunnel-vision.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#308
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow other multiplayer games deal with it just fine (Squad, Arma, Satisfactory, Minecraft off the top of my head) and let players host their game. You're just spreading FUD.

ARMA has famously awful netcode. Minecraft has mandatory hosted servers that are so non-trivial to host that it spawned a $XXmillion industry of third-party hosting, and first party hosting is also a paid service. Also bad netcode in the Java edition. I'm not sure if I'd call either of those "just fine". That system also only works for games that are able to attract some minimum viable community where some enthusiast…

Minecraft targets kids. Of course they would rather use mom's credit card to host a server than learn Docker. I have a Minecraft server running for my friends, it took all of 15 minutes to set up.

And what the hell has netcode to do with who runs the servers? So all the cloud-hosted games never suffer from jitter, latency, bad routing, network congestion? Again, it's just FUD.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#309
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But we are interested in benefits first and foremost since we are consumers We're only consumers when we consume, but that is not the extent of our participation in society. To optimize for consumption is a shortcut to certain doom. > But saying that the costs of giving the game to community are tremendous is simply misguided Tremendous, no. Significant? Yes. The cost could very well be in the millions for a single…

> The cost could very well be in the millions for a single project How did you come to this number? Something simple like giving the binaries with docs doesn't cost that much money. I'm not sure what you are referring to. > how many hours of gameplay does that actually buy? You seem to confuse the cost of continued support with the cost of giving it to the community. Nobody is asking publishers to continue support wh…

>> You're suggesting a subsidy for gamers which everyone else would to pay for

>No, that's not how it works. Not even close.

As far as I can tell, legislation which enables you to play a game in perpetuity instead of for a limited time will likely reduce the amount of tax revenue your gaming-related activities generate.

A useful metric to focus on here is the cost per hour of entertainment. The price of the game itself might stay the same, but the cost of your gaming itself would be subsidized.

Re: Stop Killing Games fails to secure EU law despite 1.3M signatures

#310
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cost per hour of games is already incredibly low compared to most other paid forms of entertainment. How is this relevant? I still want to be able to play older games 10 years from now. The cost does not matter. I would even pay more money for the guarantee that the game will be always playable. > How is it not entitled to insist that these super attractive prices should be even lower still? Nobody suggests to…

>How is this relevant? I still want to be able to play older games 10 years from now. The cost does not matter. I would even pay more money for the guarantee that the game will be always playable. You can already do that! Contact the rightsholders and negotiate with them. It'll probably be relatively cheap to buy an EOL game. >Nobody suggests to lower the prices... Do you even understand what SKG is about? I'm not mi…

> Contact the rightsholders and negotiate with them

We tried that. That didn't work.

> Making the product last longer

Once again, nobody is asking that. So you are misunderstanding SKG.

> tunnel-vision

That is very ironic and indeed dismissive.

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