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Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

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Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#401

Post by rickdeckard »

podnami wrote: post #371
leonidasrup wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like the software development at Volkswagen is done by mixed bag of different deparments with different quality. On one hand you have: Linux at Volkswagen "Software development without Linux is no longer possible within automotive environment. Therefore Volkswagen Group IT created and maintains a Linux distribution for our developers. This short talk will highlight our starting goal to integrate into the exi…

I’ve spent time doing software at VW and a few of its subsidiaries, and this matches my experience. Compliance is everything, and SAFe (Scaled Agile) is deployed as a blunt instrument. Management treats software exactly like hardware production lines—everything is just an "engineering process" that can be optimized on a spreadsheet. The underlying assumption is that individual engineering talent is just an interchang…

> Management treats software exactly like hardware production lines

That's exactly my observation as well. Classic hardware-producing companies have an immense respect on the step of entering mass-production, as whatever issue that slipped through will be multiplied and physically spread across the world.

So they come from the mindset that the dominant mindset is to minimize the SURFACE-area of potential risk. This makes it really hard for them to compete in software-space, because in software the dominant mindset is to just estimate risk.

Neither is wrong, but applied vice-versa is.

- If you treat software like hardware, you end up cutting out everything that could make your product fit more than your decided main use-case.

- If you treat hardware like software, you're placing a bet on behalf of your customer that the product "will be fine", and a (very expensive) bet that this product won't create an aftermath which may destroy your entire company.

Companies which can't manage the distinction here end up putting hardware in the hands of customers they should have built differently and then spend all their resources on software updates just to somehow keep the core function working.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#402

Post by Arainach »

userbinator wrote: post #370
subscribed wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I introduce you to the "rolling coal" morons?

I would rather they continue to exist than the alternative of a horrifically authoritarian sterile controlled-society dystopia, which is what certain parts of the world are rapidly heading towards. We live in a country where freedom is predicated on allowing certain things that others don't like. Being loud and obnoxious is just a natural part of the culture of expressing that freedom. They're not doing it all the ti…

Your right to swing your fists ends where my face - or my lungs - begin.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#403

Post by meyum33 »

this_user wrote: post #90
moooo99 wrote: post #70

It is amazing how Volkswagen keeps messing up. I am currently in the market for a new car, an EV specifically. Volkswagen brands were at the top of my list for many reasons, among them the excellent driving assist implementation. I got an offer from a dealer three weeks ago and was going to order the car, then the API for the community integration got turned off. I decided to hold back and see what comes from it. Now…

German companies, especially old school industrial ones like VW, have a very hard time understanding open platforms. The view everything through the lense of liability and compliance first. Their thinking is that if someone runs their app on a custom ROM and uses that to manipulate the app in any way, and that causes some extremely hypothetical damage, that they might be held liable for not having prevented this situ…

I guess this mentality makes sense if your products’ failures may lead to actual people dying. And in VW’s case it’s the correct culture working as it is supposed to? My Toyota sometimes feels like it was designed by a lawyer. But I somewhat understand given their history of being badly sued. That being said, at this day and age they probably need to evolve to accommodate some UE principles from the consumer electronics industry. Especially given how cars are getting more computer centric. Hitting a good balance between the old compliance/safety mentality and UE mentality will be hard.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#404

Post by spixy »

jdw64 wrote: post #390

Because I frequently supply to the automotive industry, I fully understand all these issues. No matter how good many open source projects are, companies always have to face lawsuits and liability. That is why, no matter how good Linux servers are, factories use Microsoft servers. Regarding the responsibility for that software, if a problem occurs, the company that signed the contract takes on the liability. Ultimatel…

So is this problem of german (or EU) laws?

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#405

Post by skrebbel »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #392
skrebbel wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait what brand does that? I need to know what car to not buy.

Every new car sold in the EU. Most make it easy to turn off but it does default to on when you start the car.

That’s terrible. Means I better drive my old Ford long enough for them to fix that ridiculous regulation.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#406

Post by mrweasel »

Grimeton wrote: post #384

It's not VW. It's Google doing this in the end.

The GrapheneOS users are understandably upset, but yes, this doesn't seem like an update targeted at blocking GrapheneOS or /e/OS. It's Volkswagen updating their app and using newer APIs. Technically they are probably doing "the correct" thing in terms of how Google suggests that you develop for the PlayStore API and that blocks alternative operating systems.

It still sucks, but what are they suppose to do, not use the "safer" API and risk getting told that they don't care about security? And for what, pleasing a very small minority of users?

There could be some branding value in targeting more technical users and have them act as brand ambassadors, but for a car I doubt that's worth much.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#408

Post by bjackman »

I have no plans to buy a car but I'm curious: what is the sensible choice for technical people with a reasonable amount of money?

I rent cars whenever I travel to the US and I've never not been pissed off by a car's software.

If you live in a country that makes it practica/affordable and you don't need too much range, I wonder if buying an old car with a broken engine and paying someone to do an electric conversion is a good choice?

Or maybe generally just buy a ~10 year old car, find a mechanic and say "I want this car to last a really long time, if we can build a trust relationship I will spend a lot of money in your business" and just budget for extensive proactive maintenance? Maybe with this approach you can still save money relative to a new car?

Or, is it possible to buy a newish car and then just rip out and completely replace the infotainment/climate control/etc while still keeping stuff like the parking cameras working?

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#409

Post by Cider9986 »

jdw64 wrote: post #396
Cider9986 wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grapheneos is compatible with over 99% of android apps. The only apps that don't work either actively block Grapheneos or have bugs caught by Grapheneos exploit protections which can be disabled. You don't have to do anything extra to support Grapheneos, just don't add in attestation which does nothing for security and limits user freedom. This is fundamentally different from not choosing to use Linux servers. It's m…

GOS may be much more technologically advanced and secure than Android. But that doesn't mean it has official safety certifications that can be submitted to courts and insurance companies in the event of an accident. Because GOS cannot pass hardware-based keystore authentication. I generally think open source is often better. The problem is that there is no entity to take responsibility.

There are banks that officially support Grapheneos through their hardware attestation. Android has an open and secure attestation, but Google pushes play integrity because it enables their monopoly. Companies making apps aren't exposed to these alternatives because of Google's power so that's what they choose, it's not because of security.

Re: Volkswagen started blocking GrapheneOS users

#410

Post by tonyedgecombe »

skrebbel wrote: post #405
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every new car sold in the EU. Most make it easy to turn off but it does default to on when you start the car.

That’s terrible. Means I better drive my old Ford long enough for them to fix that ridiculous regulation.

I don't see them fixing it, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they doubled down and restricted the cars speed according to the local limits.
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