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U.S. science is in chaos

scientificamerican.com

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Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#791

Post by lovich »

bigyabai wrote: post #584
nikanj wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A person who’s been told all the people doing the science look down on them. Partially true, too, based on how I’ve heard people talk about ”dumb redneck trump voters”

That's a form of collective punishment that rewards their stigma. It would be like revoking tax breaks for farmers because you dislike rural American voters.

I’m pretty for revoking tax breaks and subsidies from farmers since they tend to always complain about welfare queens while they have their hand out.

They can individually have them back if they can publicly state they are receiving support from the state. Don’t even need to say if it’s good or bad, just acknowledge the reality.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#792

Post by totetsu »

garciasn wrote: post #742
caseysoftware wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Academic experience typically doesn't count." Why not?

I can’t speak to this particular sector; however, I have found academics to lag 5-7y behind the realities of the business world I operate in. Business moves incredibly fast; academia, not so much.

If it’s constantly 5-7 years behind isn’t it moving at the same speed just with an offset?

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#793

Post by smileysteve »

littlekey wrote: post #423
twothreeone wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which really tells you more about the state of mind of people asking that question. What kind of person isn't curious about the puzzle of their own existence, or the nature of the physical reality they live in (and yes, by "being curious" I mean "being willing to put a tax dollar amount to them")?

>What kind of person isn't curious about the puzzle of their own existence A person who struggles to put food on the table and a roof over their heads, for one.

This implies that the money saved by cutting research was fungible and not part of a still increasing deficit, that the government doesn't debt spend, and that there aren't positive externalities (including jobs, education, and supporting services in addition to outcomes from the research.

Indeed, not only did research programs get cut, but so did USDA funding which both balanced farming and put food on table. And this was a year after the previous administration reduced the deficit, sent food funding to states, of which ~13 rejected the funding.

Food funding, which, has been studied to increase economic output beyond it's costs, similar to research funding.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#794

Post by skulk »

haberman wrote: post #676
jubilanti wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that your people had the land you'd been living on for countless generations invaded, taken from them after a bloody campaign, where the survivors were forced into poverty in concentration camps, where they could not leave, where many women had their fallopian tubes tied without even their knowledge, where children were beaten for speaking their language, where they were intentionally and deliberately kept in…

I think you can easily turn this around: scientists who are only willing to do science if it involves preferential treatment, DEI statements, and other practices that half of the country despises are saying that it's better to do no science at all than to set those divisive practices aside and just do science. Proponents of these policies want to have it both ways; they're at one moment just this small thing that nob…

This group of people you're describing ("scientists who are only willing to do science if it involves preferential treatment") is simply not real. The idea that academics would cling to DEI statements or refuse funding is beyond laughable, and could only be dreamt up by someone who has never experienced academia.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#795

Post by onetimeusename »

watersb wrote: post #764
onetimeusename wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is an offensive and self fulfilling view. Americans are too dumb to do science so we need to rely almost entirely on foreigners from almost entirely the same two countries to do it for us. There's lots of holes in this scheme. I don't really want politicians to control funding for science but then again we've become somewhat of a degree mill and there's a lot of useless careerism in academia. I will give…

Even with perfect information regarding R&D outcomes, capitalism is competitive. Capitalism is duplication of effort. I've never been particularly convinced by the crusade to eliminate alternatives to capitalism in the name of eliminating a society's wasteful behavior.

Because I criticized academia does not mean I support political types ripping up funding nor scrapping it altogether. My thought is that academia has had a reckoning coming for some time because their practices are not sustainable. It relies on a huge number of foreign grad students to prop itself up, it's costs have become very expensive for Americans. There's a number of credible arguments to be made. The nicest way I could put it is that the impact of a lot of work that academics do is not that high. But it's prestigious being a professor and there are high incentives to keep publishing for some, gaming citations with mediocre results is perhaps a path to tenure.

At some point this was not going to continue to sustain itself, something would give. Now, I think it's unfortunate that it became political. That means that my criticisms will be viewed through partisan lenses. I am not a fan of political types deciding what to fund. But I also think academia can be full of itself and this shield they can hide behind of "just doing pure science" is baloney. Some are. Definitely not everyone. So I personally think there should be a reduction in the number of PhDs granted and the overall size of academia but that is not in favor of getting rid of it or the way it's being done presently.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#796

Post by albedoa »

Ar-Curunir wrote: post #627
vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, research funding turned stupid before DOGE. I remember talking a guy who was struggling to write the mandatory diversity statement for a grant in quantum computing.

Whatever diversity sections were required in grant proposals are nothing compared to the situation right now. If your guy couldn’t say stuff like we will do outreach to local CCs, will design summer research programs, etc, then they’re just not a very good grant writer

It's every time with these freaks: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44294782

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#797

Post by softwaredoug »

The real issue here is impoundments.

Russel Vought thinks the President has the power to not spend funds allocated by Congress. They literally are acting as if the presidents budget request for NASA was approved, when Congress actually allocated NASA at the same level as prior years.

Science is particularly vulnerable. They can just not award the grants they’re supposed to.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#798

Post by smileysteve »

datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #503
littlekey wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What kind of person isn't curious about the puzzle of their own existence A person who struggles to put food on the table and a roof over their heads, for one.

What a sleight of hand to suggest that science funding gathered from taxes is impacting the ability for poorer Americans to afford their food. No wonder politicization of science funding is so successful on the right: it’s so rhetorically intoxicating.

It's especially interesting because prior to the time of the election, the administration approved food funding to states that GOP run states rejected.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#799

Post by platevoltage »

mbmbn wrote: post #178
kittikitti wrote: post #160

This article informs a good understanding and confirms the issues I've witnessed in academia. However, I found that it didn't cover the censorship of any criticism of Israel in science and academics. This was explicitly codified into law with respect to government funding and is a major topic of scientific funding in colleges and universities. Scientific grants and researchers often require a Zionist bias to get fund…

[flagged]

You know what is detached from reality? Reading a comment criticizing Zionists, and somehow interpreting it as some long running stereotype about Jewish people, which the comment never mentioned. It's hard to believe that people are still doing this pearl clutching in 2026. Most Zionists are Christians, and a large portion of them, including the US Ambassador to Israel, believe in the Rapture. Connect those dots.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#800

Post by jimbokun »

softwaredoug wrote: post #797

The real issue here is impoundments. Russel Vought thinks the President has the power to not spend funds allocated by Congress. They literally are acting as if the presidents budget request for NASA was approved, when Congress actually allocated NASA at the same level as prior years. Science is particularly vulnerable. They can just not award the grants they’re supposed to.

Most people are still not aware of the extent to which the US government has been overthrown.

Powers granted exclusively to Congress have been usurped by the Executive, with no pushback from Congress.

The courts have done better. But they can only do so much at the unrelenting stream of violations coming from this administration.

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