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US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

reuters.com

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Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#381

Post by est »

godelski wrote: post #371
apatheticonion wrote: post #320

I use DeepSeek every day (via VSCode Insiders and Zed Editor). It's very affordable and, while it's slightly behind Claude (not sure how far behind Fable), it suits my working style well. I'm not using unsupervised multi-agent workflows and don't need a library of skills files - I'm writing most of the code and leaning on AI to help with mundane tasks - like; - generating types for APIs - generating boilerplate based…

> As an Australian, I'm not sure that I care about the safety of my data when it comes to LLMs. US companies already stole scores of data I'm not sure I understand this. I'm not defending the US, but isn't your data being in more hands worse? Also, isn't Australia in a more contentious situation with China? Them being more allied with the US and all? Not to mention the whole nuclear sub issue. Having data stolen is s…

> isn't your data being in more hands worse?

> Having data stolen is shitty

Fun fact: Deepseek can be hosted by third parties even yourself.

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#382

Post by florkbork »

godelski wrote: post #371
apatheticonion wrote: post #320

I use DeepSeek every day (via VSCode Insiders and Zed Editor). It's very affordable and, while it's slightly behind Claude (not sure how far behind Fable), it suits my working style well. I'm not using unsupervised multi-agent workflows and don't need a library of skills files - I'm writing most of the code and leaning on AI to help with mundane tasks - like; - generating types for APIs - generating boilerplate based…

> As an Australian, I'm not sure that I care about the safety of my data when it comes to LLMs. US companies already stole scores of data I'm not sure I understand this. I'm not defending the US, but isn't your data being in more hands worse? Also, isn't Australia in a more contentious situation with China? Them being more allied with the US and all? Not to mention the whole nuclear sub issue. Having data stolen is s…

Re Australia vs China

https://youtu.be/sgspkxfkS4k?si=JgnhenF0qeTZXeGS basically explains the situation.

While having data/code stolen isn't ideal, there is a certain point where you need to assume it's already out there. There's actually more probability of harm from shady US companies imo, because people are less suspicious about data sovereignty

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#383

Post by technion »

godelski wrote: post #371
apatheticonion wrote: post #320

I use DeepSeek every day (via VSCode Insiders and Zed Editor). It's very affordable and, while it's slightly behind Claude (not sure how far behind Fable), it suits my working style well. I'm not using unsupervised multi-agent workflows and don't need a library of skills files - I'm writing most of the code and leaning on AI to help with mundane tasks - like; - generating types for APIs - generating boilerplate based…

> As an Australian, I'm not sure that I care about the safety of my data when it comes to LLMs. US companies already stole scores of data I'm not sure I understand this. I'm not defending the US, but isn't your data being in more hands worse? Also, isn't Australia in a more contentious situation with China? Them being more allied with the US and all? Not to mention the whole nuclear sub issue. Having data stolen is s…

As an Australian.. politically I need to worry about business data touching China. It will come up at a Risk Advisory Committee meeting as a serious issue.

In actual personal practice, no. China having my data presents no actual impact to me, America will do things that impact me.

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#384

Post by teravor »

wat10000 wrote: post #366
teravor wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese scary! Chinese nationals should be assumed to act on behalf of China, it really isn't difficult to understand even for pathologically empathetic people.

That's fine, but what stops those Chinese nationals at Geely from messing with their cars now?

do you have evidence that if they wanted to do that they would not be giving orders to European or American engineers? as I said, financial fictions don't matter in matters such as these.

if you have evidence that they have Chinese nationals working as engineers without oversight, you should submit it to the government.

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#385

Post by rib3ye »

nick__m wrote: post #307
rib3ye wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_Peo...

Could you give a recent example? Because your example is as pertinent as the overthrowing of Guatemala's democratically elected President in 1954 by the CIA.

I don't remember the U.S. federal government declaring Guatemala a U.S. territory and asking all Guatemalans to change their official language.

What China did in Tibet is closer to what the U.S. did with Hawaii.

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#386

Post by hodgehog11 »

godelski wrote: post #371
apatheticonion wrote: post #320

I use DeepSeek every day (via VSCode Insiders and Zed Editor). It's very affordable and, while it's slightly behind Claude (not sure how far behind Fable), it suits my working style well. I'm not using unsupervised multi-agent workflows and don't need a library of skills files - I'm writing most of the code and leaning on AI to help with mundane tasks - like; - generating types for APIs - generating boilerplate based…

> As an Australian, I'm not sure that I care about the safety of my data when it comes to LLMs. US companies already stole scores of data I'm not sure I understand this. I'm not defending the US, but isn't your data being in more hands worse? Also, isn't Australia in a more contentious situation with China? Them being more allied with the US and all? Not to mention the whole nuclear sub issue. Having data stolen is s…

Historically speaking, the US might even be a larger risk to Australia than China is. The US alliance goes back a long way, and so does the opposition to US influence. Since the Whitlam government, MPs are generally fearful of US retaliation, rendering much of our politics hostage to US influence. Of course, some PMs have openly embraced the US so this feeling isn't universal. But many of our issues are directly tied to the US.

China has been far more beneficial to Australia by comparison, with the downside being the encroaching influence of CCP propaganda. Many of our strengths are tied to our relationships with Southeast Asia.

Paul Keating has famously declared US as an "aggressive ally", "our colonial masters", AUKUS as our "worst international decision", and that "our future is in Southeast Asia". This was under Biden too.

So the situation is much more complicated, and the feelings on the ground right now is that the US are not our friends (of course, the CCP is not great either).

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#387

Post by UncleOxidant »

gypsy_boots wrote: post #236
WarmWash wrote: post #106

If Chinese LLMs are successfully making people in the west defend China, then I think we have all the evidence we need to explain why they are giving away their models. The next step of course will be to get people using that ungodly cheap AI on Chinese servers. Which will also be defended because "I would never trust an American Lab".

It's funny how you can look at obscenely overvalued Western AI companies, with capex's that are unsustainable, and along comes a system which pokes a gaping hole in this model, and the response is "Ya, but what do those sneaky Chinese have up their sleeve here?!" Perhaps the question should instead be "Why are these Western AI companies getting insane valuations on dubious ROI, and how can these Chinese models run on…

One thing is that many of these Chinese companies have had to do more with less due to technology export restrictions. Doing more with less is not something that the big US AI companies think about much. The Chinese models are apparently much more compute and energy efficient.

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#388

Post by teravor »

cwel wrote: post #378
teravor wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese scary! Chinese nationals should be assumed to act on behalf of China, it really isn't difficult to understand even for pathologically empathetic people.

> Chinese nationals should be assumed to act on behalf of China I acknowledged this, you quoted it. > it really isn't difficult to understand... Where does 'it' end? Is the subsidiary not operating at the behest of their parent? I need to know when it's safe to no longer be scared.

    > Where does 'it' end? Is the subsidiary not operating at the behest of their parent?
corporations are financial fictions. the risk I am discussing is literally the mass destruction and murder of civilians during a time of war. individuals carrying it out will be subject to sanctions (including elimination), only those who are protected by their government will carry out such instructions.

and therefore national security focuses on firms which have engineers that are protected thus.

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#389

Post by hodgehog11 »

apatheticonion wrote: post #320

I use DeepSeek every day (via VSCode Insiders and Zed Editor). It's very affordable and, while it's slightly behind Claude (not sure how far behind Fable), it suits my working style well. I'm not using unsupervised multi-agent workflows and don't need a library of skills files - I'm writing most of the code and leaning on AI to help with mundane tasks - like; - generating types for APIs - generating boilerplate based…

In terms of price-to-productivity, nothing will beat DeepSeek right now. For what you have described, all of the existing frontier models will perform well (probably about the same even).

If you expanded the list to very hard research tasks, Fable was so far ahead of the others that it doesn't even deserve debate. If you are a researcher doing something involving scientific computation or mathematics that wasn't rejected by the guard rails, and you were using Fable, that week was probably your most productive week ever. A couple of my PhD students effectively finished their current projects in that period by getting Fable to chew on it for 30 hours straight (not sure how I feel about that).

Re: US holds off blacklisting DeepSeek, more than 100 firms deemed security risks

#390

Post by skeptic_ai »

janalsncm wrote: post #288
torginus wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that even work? If Z.ai wants to buy lets say GPUs for AI training, what's stopping them from going to a local reseller? Its not even circumventing the rules, its the natural thing to do. For that matter, does (only) NVIDIA make datacenter cards? When I buy a gaming card, I dont buy from NVIDIA, I buy from an integrator, like Gigabyte, who work with a company like Foxconn to make the cards.

The export restrictions only apply to certain GPU models, which are the more recent powerful ones used for training tasks. So the H100, B100 etc. are banned along with 4090, 5090. Nvidia has downgraded chips that aren’t banned. H100 is banned, H800 is allowed. A100 is banned, A800 is allowed. But the sale has a tariff attached. That’s all how it’s supposed to work. In practice companies probably circumvent the restri…

Can I tell you I can go downstairs now and buy a 5090 (not d or d2 version, the real 5090) in China for 4000usd (33000rmb)? They have it stock right now, they have since release. It’s a Japan version.

I didn’t ask about h100 or others but can’t see why they wouldn’t have.

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