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GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

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Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#271

Post by sublimefire »

jampekka wrote: post #190
sublimefire wrote: post #69

It is crazy that anything Europe gets so much hate. IMO it is important to build models within the boundaries of smaller nations, using their own language. Research has to continue even if it is outside of US and China.

I was somewhat excited about these "sovereign" open models in the beginning, but it became soon apparent that they're not gonna be anything but toys compared to SOTA. The problem is that there are a lot, at least 30, of these small projects scattered around, funded for a few years as some ad-hoc temporary coalition of universities and businesses. Those simply cannot compete with businesses spending tens of billions o…

Anyone can move the needle. Saying that languages are solved is not accurate as well. You could raise different questions like maybe model grounded in a different language will make it more efficient in some tasks, maybe language structure matters for a multidimentional space, maybe that matters for the distillation, etc. It is all about the ideas and their exchange, not about the investment rounds and MAU.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#272

Post by WarmWash »

dminik wrote: post #227
WarmWash wrote: post #111

If Europe is serious about getting home grown AI fast, three simple steps: 1. Huge tax incentives, let the companies get grossly wealthy while paying minimal taxes. Minimum 10 years with clauses protecting "retribution" taxes there after. 2. Tax incentives for the founders/shareholders, just like above. 3. Drop worker protections to a minimum, make it easy to fire people. You only want serious/dedicated employees any…

Some additional points to consider: 1. Pay the workers in company scrip and relocate the workers to a company town. That way, all workers are fully dedicated to the company. 2. Start importing slaves from Africa again. It worked to build up massive wealth. Should do the trick for AI as well. 3. Abolish the 8 hour work day. No comment needed. With these 3 simple tricks, you too can get 6-7 bazillion euro AI mammoths.

No, we don't need any slavery. The employees at these AI companies will almost certainly out earn most if not all other local white collar workers, while also getting top tier benefits. They can also quit at any time if they don't like it or don't think it is fair.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#273

Post by WarmWash »

TalkingCodeMonk wrote: post #212
WarmWash wrote: post #111

If Europe is serious about getting home grown AI fast, three simple steps: 1. Huge tax incentives, let the companies get grossly wealthy while paying minimal taxes. Minimum 10 years with clauses protecting "retribution" taxes there after. 2. Tax incentives for the founders/shareholders, just like above. 3. Drop worker protections to a minimum, make it easy to fire people. You only want serious/dedicated employees any…

This "greed is good, and should be rewarded" philosophy is one I see all too often on HN, and the entire reason why Americas political, regulatory, and business leadership have been overrun by the countries most criminally corrupt narcissists and psychopaths; why its democracy has collapsed. When you reward the most selfish, corrupt, and antisocial behaviours with wealth and power, you're guaranteed to create a selfi…

No greed will be rewarded. If European consumers don't like the end AI models that are produced, they can forgo buying them and the investors can watch their fortress burn. For the EU taxpayer, nothing was gained and nothing was lost. All the state did was stand out of the way.

If the models are good though, they will have their sovereign AI and should be happy to pay for it instead of American or Chinese models. You may call it greed, but to me it just sounds fair.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#274

Post by jaapz »

dijksterhuis wrote: post #236
trhway wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This "vaguely nationalistic world view around tech" is a direct consequence of the US government weaponizing its leading tech firms reach into the EU for nationalistic purposes. And in response NL should weaponize ASML for example. Then both sides would naturally back down. Specialization is the most efficient way of developing tech civilization. Whereis everybody building their own mediocre versions would be repeat…

ASML wiki for those like me who were confused https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML (despite the name, i am not dutch)

I am quite interested to hear how you would pronounce your name, dike-ster-house (assuming you live in the US)?

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#275

Post by user43928 »

TalkingCodeMonk wrote: post #254
user43928 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If tax incentives to attract companies and at-will employment are already viewed as a destructive collapse of democracy, it's no wonder we are not getting anything done here in Europe.

I suggest you take the time to read independent analysis on the benefits of corporate subsidies in America. I know I've read of many cases where they cost cities and communities far more than the economic activity they promise to generate (eg Amazon warehouses and sportsball stadiums). Subsidies could make strategic sense in the case of AI, but it's terrible economics to encourage businesses that take more from commu…

Data centers are known to create few local jobs while requiring upgrades to the power grid or water infrastructure.

Wouldn't that make it important to subsidize them at the national level, precisely for that reason? Otherwise it seems likely to be a NIMBY problem.

But now I'm talking about data centers, the main thing we lack here is AI research labs, is it not? I think those should create many jobs.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#276

Post by nradov »

Certhas wrote: post #221
bradhe wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got it, so every country should focus on having a mediocre-at-best AI strategy by refusing to work together? Surely this will create a better future instead of pooling resources. This vaguely-nationalist world view around tech that’s emerging in Europe is dangerous, man. On the brain drain problem in particular, one way to ensure talent sticks around is to create a good environment for people to do their best work. I…

This "vaguely nationalistic world view around tech" is a direct consequence of the US government weaponizing its leading tech firms reach into the EU for nationalistic purposes. The EU was build on the principles of collaboration, to overcome the nationalistic impulses. Free trade and free movement of people, no need for everyone to replicate what everyone else is doing. Preventing individual nation states from favor…

Let's not overstate the case. The EU was built to keep France and Germany from getting into another war, and it has been successful at that. All the other "principles" are just window dressing.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#277

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

jbverschoor wrote: post #205
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any move like this would be simply by murdering the golden goose. ASMLs stuff is good no doubt but you don’t want to give the world the incentive to develop an alternative. If it was done once it can be done again and once it has been done again say good bye to all those returns on monopoly.

What makes you think they're not trying? The incentive has always been there. They simply fail to succeed.

There’s trying and then there’s trying.

If ASML’s output were absolutely necessary to the US or the rest of the world, and if no replacement could be made, the Netherlands would have infinite leverage and be the most powerful country in the world. That they aren’t tells you all you need to know about exactly how far they could take a strategy like what you’re describing. Yes, everyone needs ASML. But ASML also needs everyone else.

An elite toolmaker is nothing without the factories that use the tools.

The odds of the Dutch attempting to encumber the use of ASML machines by western bloc allies is similar to the odds of the sun going out suddenly. It ain’t gonna happen.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#278

Post by dijksterhuis »

jaapz wrote: post #274
dijksterhuis wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASML wiki for those like me who were confused https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML (despite the name, i am not dutch)

I am quite interested to hear how you would pronounce your name, dike-ster-house (assuming you live in the US)?

> dike-ster-house

yep, basically. 3rd one down https://www.howtopronounce.com/dijksterhuis

the story behind it: i was looking for a name to write music under. and i was reading academic papers about subliminal messaging in music and stuff. i came across a paper where they seemed to be absolutely ripping into this "dijksterhuis" guy's previous paper. felt bad for him. felt like he was an underdog. so i ran with that name.

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#279

Post by tantalor »

bmenrigh wrote: post #270

I think at this point what the Netherlands, and any other country that wants a good model in their language should do, is gather up every piece of text ever written in that language and license it to the big AI labs/companies for training. I'm sure there are vast libraries of books and other text that haven't been digitized and aren't a priority for the big labs.

Yeah except replace "license it to the companies for training" with "pay the companies to train on it"

Re: GPT‑NL: a sovereign language model for the Netherlands

#280

Post by WarmWash »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #208
WarmWash wrote: post #111

If Europe is serious about getting home grown AI fast, three simple steps: 1. Huge tax incentives, let the companies get grossly wealthy while paying minimal taxes. Minimum 10 years with clauses protecting "retribution" taxes there after. 2. Tax incentives for the founders/shareholders, just like above. 3. Drop worker protections to a minimum, make it easy to fire people. You only want serious/dedicated employees any…

They can be serious about home-grown AI without needing to become a libertarian capitalist hellscape. I prefer happiness, safety and privacy over competing with the US / China.

Sure, but good luck finding serious top tier AI researchers who are willing to work for $80k/yr when the US is offering them upwards of $1M/yr.
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