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U.S. science is in chaos

scientificamerican.com

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Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#161

Post by innagadadavida »

Rebuff5007 wrote: post #106
johnp314 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is partisan, at least the 'science' being addressed in this article, because the funding for this science comes from a finite source and there are competing demands placed on this finite source. As any competent scientist knows, taking something from a finite source leaves less in the source. There are differing ideas and beliefs, some partisan (including those of the esteemed Mr. Colbert), on how best to div…

Science being partisan right now has nothing to do with funding. It has to do with the disdain that the people currently in power have to live in a shared reality with the rest of the poulation. Theres a monumental leap from saying "lets not invest in climate change because thats not a good use of tax dollars" to "lets not invest in climate change because its a hoax."

Any “investment” here directly translates to more human activity that will make climate change worse not better. It is hypocritical to have these climate conferences and fly there burning jet fuel. The need of the hour is to drastically reduce the GDP - we need to rewind the clock 50years. But this will never happen because folks will lose jobs and scientists will lose their funding.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#162

Post by SiempreViernes »

MemoryHoleHQ wrote: post #104
brorfred wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to show how DEI works at NASA, I share a DEI plan we wrote for a proposal just before the change of administration. This plan was rated highly by the agency. Which parts are "appealing discriminatory practices"? Inclusion Plan Both PIs and collaborators recognize the negative effect that systemic barriers have on academia and the importance of facilitating the full participation, belonging, and contribution of d…

[flagged]

> Yet again, who is paying for this? This is a modern witch hunt.

Since this can only mean the DOGE witch hunt we all clearly remember, I think Elon Musk was paying for it? But now it's just taxpayer money (if there is anything left after "contributing" to all of Trumps many funds).

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#163

Post by rimliu »

marcyb5st wrote: post #45
collinmcnulty wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately there is another possibility: a return to great power competition.

I don't see that happening. The US debt will hinder any big expense that could keep it in any game long term. Take AI for instance. The US grid is struggling to keep up with demand, while Chinese one has a lot of headway [1]. Usually, this could be solved by an increase in spending lasting a few years which would make the debt tick up, but that would've been an absolutely fine use of debt since it buys some shiny new…

Maybe AI is not a good example. It is extremely efficient as money burning machine, but for everything else...

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#164

Post by SiempreViernes »

brorfred wrote: post #84
MemoryHoleHQ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Just to show how DEI works at NASA, I share a DEI plan we wrote for a proposal just before the change of administration. This plan was rated highly by the agency. Which parts are "appealing discriminatory practices"? Inclusion Plan Both PIs and collaborators recognize the negative effect that systemic barriers have on academia and the importance of facilitating the full participation, belonging, and contribution of d…

[flagged]

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#165

Post by elgertam »

marcyb5st wrote: post #45
collinmcnulty wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately there is another possibility: a return to great power competition.

I don't see that happening. The US debt will hinder any big expense that could keep it in any game long term. Take AI for instance. The US grid is struggling to keep up with demand, while Chinese one has a lot of headway [1]. Usually, this could be solved by an increase in spending lasting a few years which would make the debt tick up, but that would've been an absolutely fine use of debt since it buys some shiny new…

> Take AI for instance. The US grid is struggling to keep up with demand, while Chinese one has a lot of headway [1]. Usually, this could be solved by an increase in spending lasting a few years which would make the debt tick up, but that would've been an absolutely fine use of debt since it buys some shiny new infra that will pay dividends for the next 20ish years.

I object. The CCP is much more deeply indebted than the US when taking into account provincial and local governments as well as state-owned enterprises.[0] And of course the US debt is financed in its own currency while Chinese foreign debt is financed in dollars or other currencies.

The problem in the US is regulation. An environmental impact study takes 54 months in the US.[1] The CCP, which has no problem poisoning its people or even launching rockets over inhabited villages, doesn't delay itself at all.[2] I'm glad we don't poison our people or place dangerous industry in places that could harm populated areas, or even perform some prophylactic measures to protect nature, but I'm confident that we could do this in less then a year (less than six months?) and make much faster progress. Even for something like nuclear, the ten years (mostly caused by red tape) are really onerous.

> China is the only one that can run if it comes down to it (unless of course the numbers coming out of China are mega bogus, but for that I don't know enough to have an opinion).

Yes, the common opinion among China watchers is that any number the CCP touches is "mega bogus." They're actually in the midst of something of a financial crisis at the moment because of the high debt.

[0]https://www.statista.com/topics/11662/debt-in-china/

[1]https://www.rff.org/publications/reports/how-long-does-it-ta...

[2]https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/11/china-keeps-dropping...

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#166

Post by nextos »

oersted wrote: post #12
embedding-shape wrote: post #4

> When the shutdown ended in mid-November, Reynolds’s team had just two weeks to get on budget. It failed. The plan the group submitted would cost too much and take too long. “Our last hope was that NASA headquarters would understand what had gone on and give us some leeway,” Reynolds says. NASA did not. After nearly 10 years of work, AXIS was dead. If the scientists haven't left science behind after an experience li…

Oh scientists are leaving science in droves, certainly. Often becoming sales-people for deep-tech companies, which is rather sad. This is the most recent shock, and probably the biggest one, but academia has been becoming toxically metrics-driven, authoritative and political for a long while, weirdly more than in industry. It has nothing to do with scientists of course, they are the last ones that would want this. It…

True, also very precarious and unstable. It is now common not to get a long-term contract until your 40s.

Given the massive pay gap with industry and scarce funding, it's natural lots of innovation has shifted to industrial labs.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#167

Post by fn-mote »

inigyou wrote: post #89
rzwitserloot wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In normal times, what you say is obviously true. But specifically at this moment in time what you've written is total hogwash. Currently the US is spending money as if it's, specifically, an infinite resource. Hence, this kaibosh on science funding can only be explained because the powers that be want it dead and gone . Do with that info what you will. The various flavours of conspiracy-theory-leaning ideas on wantin…

Currently, in the US, money is an infinite resource. One need only look at the world's latest one point five trillionaire. Where is the money coming from to support that valuation? And why is it being spent to maintain that valuation? Part of it is accounting tricks (sell 5% of a company for $20, and you're worth $400 with only $20 changing hands) but there's also genuinely a massive unexplained amount of money in ex…

> Currently, in the US, money is an infinite resource. […]

Try harder to engage in dialog. Basic economic theory contradicts your claim. You need a much stronger logical argument to have any credibility.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#168

Post by timr »

nilirl wrote: post #155
timr wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

From your original post, > repeating things we already know Not a terribly scientific stance. > while legitimate researchers have to scrimp and wheedle to do anything novel There isn't a normative standard for good research beyond doing good research. Some fields have an easier time setting up and controlling experiments, but no research can predict how useful it'll turn out to be. You're conflating control convenien…

> There isn't a normative standard for good research beyond doing good research.

Ah yes, the post-modernist rebuttal. There is no objective reality, so let's not have any standards at all.

This isn't new, and isn't responsive. We've never had a normative standard, yet we pick and choose projects all the time. One can still tell the difference between someone asking a repetitive question and a novel question. I can also tell "good research" thanks to years and years of advanced training, which I have used here to tell you that most of this stuff you like is bad.

> Some fields have an easier time setting up and controlling experiments, but no research can predict how useful it'll turn out to be. You're conflating control convenience for utility.

If you can't do the experiment, you don't deserve scientific funding. Go get a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts or a left-wing think tank or something.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#169

Post by roysting »

The fact that people think the current state of chaos is a consequence of recent developments clearly tells us more about why it is in chaos than those types of people have the capacity to hear or understand.

It also tells us that it’s very unlikely going to be resolved on this side of some catalytic event. If reason prevailed, we would not be in this state of chaos.

People who think this is a consequence of merely the last 10 or 40 years, clearly have no understand of cause and lagging effects.

Re: U.S. science is in chaos

#170

Post by foxglacier »

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #114
cubefox wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Because if you give an inch to that line of thinking, it leads to broader dehumanization and mass tragedy.

No matter how noble your intentions are, if you reject science then you're anti-science. Leftists need to learn to admit that about themselves instead of trying to have their cake and eat it too.
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