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iTunes 11: the convergence of iOS and OS X design

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Re: iTunes 11: the convergence of iOS and OS X design

#41

Post by snowwrestler »

jlgreco wrote: post #20
benbeltran wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many regular users beg to differ. At least, in my experience, the people who are less familiar with computers are the ones that love the new features the most. Especially launchpad and such. Also, just curious, but what about Lion / Mountain lion disqualifies it from being a "true" desktop OS?

The 90s seem like they would have been a good time to worry about users who don't really know what computers are. Why are we now driving for that market when everyone under the age of 30 grew up using modern computers? Are we still gunning from the mostly imaginary "grandmother who doesn't know how to use computers" market? The market that 1) is only shrinking, if indeed it ever existed and 2) presumably doesn't buy…

The success of the iPad shows that there is still a market for making computers easier to use--why not take some of those ease-of-use features and put them on actual computers?

Power users might not like some of the changes, but it's easy to provide them with advanced setting options to change them back (like scrolling or Gatekeeper)--or build the new features in such a way that they're easily ignored (like Launch Pad).

Re: iTunes 11: the convergence of iOS and OS X design

#42

Post by Alphasite_ »

radley wrote: post #37

My take is that iTunes 11 pivots away from making playlists and focuses on the 99% of users that simply buy and listen to albums. I'm a heavy playlist user and the changes are shockingly bad. For "normal" users there's a dozen different ways to navigate and sort by album. But for playlist users there's now only one view - a text list - and a demoted tool menu on the bottom. Even command keys (i.e. Cmd-N) have been ch…

There are 2 opinions that i can see. If you have the sidebar enabled, you get what seems (at least superficially) to be close to the old iTunes interface, with CMD + N for new lists, etc. If you have it disabled, then you can use the column browser, which rather curiously wont work with the sidebar.

Anyway, its more than likely that I completely missed the entire point of the post. Also, downgrading doesn't need a full timemachine restore, the only bit that may be easier with time machine is restoring the old library file, but its apparently not entirely essential.

Re: iTunes 11: the convergence of iOS and OS X design

#43

Post by jlgreco »

snowwrestler wrote: post #41
jlgreco wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 90s seem like they would have been a good time to worry about users who don't really know what computers are. Why are we now driving for that market when everyone under the age of 30 grew up using modern computers? Are we still gunning from the mostly imaginary "grandmother who doesn't know how to use computers" market? The market that 1) is only shrinking, if indeed it ever existed and 2) presumably doesn't buy…

The success of the iPad shows that there is still a market for making computers easier to use--why not take some of those ease-of-use features and put them on actual computers? Power users might not like some of the changes, but it's easy to provide them with advanced setting options to change them back (like scrolling or Gatekeeper)--or build the new features in such a way that they're easily ignored (like Launch Pa…

I think the success of the iPad has more to do with it being a good piece of product that does what people want it to do, and less to do with all of it's users being trapped in the 90s.

So why not take iPad design mentalities and slap it into a computer? Because the iPad experience was engineered for the iPad. Simple interfaces are necessary due to the nature of touch devices, and usage patterns are designed for the form factor of the iPad. Dumping all of that into a PC because "Users are dumb, but they are smart enough to use the iPad" is missing the point entirely I think. If the same people are involved in both efforts, then I think either they have lost their focus, or I am giving them too much credit to begin with.

iOS is good. OSX is good.

The attitude "OSX is too hard, we need to make it more like iOS" is my concern.

If you can create a legitimate case for making changes to OSX that look like iOS features, then by all means do so. Natural scrolling direction is a great example of that, I remember wishing I could make my touchpad in linux do it 5 years ago. "Users are dumb" is not a legitimate case though.

Re: iTunes 11: the convergence of iOS and OS X design

#44

Post by radley »

Alphasite_ wrote: post #42
radley wrote: post #37

My take is that iTunes 11 pivots away from making playlists and focuses on the 99% of users that simply buy and listen to albums. I'm a heavy playlist user and the changes are shockingly bad. For "normal" users there's a dozen different ways to navigate and sort by album. But for playlist users there's now only one view - a text list - and a demoted tool menu on the bottom. Even command keys (i.e. Cmd-N) have been ch…

There are 2 opinions that i can see. If you have the sidebar enabled, you get what seems (at least superficially) to be close to the old iTunes interface, with CMD + N for new lists, etc. If you have it disabled, then you can use the column browser, which rather curiously wont work with the sidebar. Anyway, its more than likely that I completely missed the entire point of the post. Also, downgrading doesn't need a fu…

I missed the difference. The two sidebars were similar enough I just used the new default playlist sidebar.

It looks like Cmd-N works differently depending on which sidebar you're using. Old sidebar it works in classic mode (thanks for pointing that out!). New sidebar it opens the newer New Playlist view.

You can't restore the iTunes app directly: you'll get an OS warning. Using "Restore to..." the Desktop will result in a corrupted app file on the desktop. Also, iTunes 11 changes the library file system a bit.

Re: iTunes 11: the convergence of iOS and OS X design

#45

Post by Derbasti »

w1ntermute wrote: post #15
ComputerGuru wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agreed. Snow Leopard was the last "true" desktop OS. I really don't see the need for Launchpad and co. when everything is and always has been a cmd+space away. EDIT In response to the heated discussion below, it's not just the launchpad that has me a little peeved about Lion and ML (I'm on ML now). Some of things that are being taken from iOS that I don't necessarily feel belong on the desktop: natural scr…

With Windows 8, the same thing is happening to Windows, leaving Linux as the only real "desktop" OS. Even there, you have stuff like Unity, but Linux's flexibility lets you choose not to use it. This is what my Xubuntu desktop looks like, and I don't intend to change it any time soon: http://i.imgur.com/mVAey.png

I am keeping a keen eye on Linux. I'm not quite disgruntled enough with OS X, but I'm getting there. If Apple and Microsoft will continue on their current trajectory, I am confident that I'll switch over to Linux in two or three years.

And I think I won't be the only one. And I think we tech people are always the head of the wave. We are the early adopters. If Apple and Microsoft manage to drive us to Linux en masse, we might just create enough momentum to start a bigger migration.

But whatever. Linux is getting more and more interesting to me every year.

Re: iTunes 11: the convergence of iOS and OS X design

#46

Post by wlesieutre »

jlgreco wrote: post #20
benbeltran wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many regular users beg to differ. At least, in my experience, the people who are less familiar with computers are the ones that love the new features the most. Especially launchpad and such. Also, just curious, but what about Lion / Mountain lion disqualifies it from being a "true" desktop OS?

The 90s seem like they would have been a good time to worry about users who don't really know what computers are. Why are we now driving for that market when everyone under the age of 30 grew up using modern computers? Are we still gunning from the mostly imaginary "grandmother who doesn't know how to use computers" market? The market that 1) is only shrinking, if indeed it ever existed and 2) presumably doesn't buy…

I have family members who have used Apple products since at least System 7 (probably earlier, that's the first one I can remember). But they're still more comfortable with an iPad than a Mac.

There are a ton of things that we assume are second nature, but are really learned skills. I think the notion that applications that aren't in the dock still exist (in the Applications folder) is starting to sink in, but installing software from disk images? You have to mount it, copy the program to the Applications folder, understand where it went so you can launch it, and then eject the disk image.

I knew people when I was in high school (granted that was a while ago, but it wasn't their first time using a computer) who would download software and just run it off of the disk image every time they wanted it. Unless the developer has put in an alias and a background image to explain things, there's no indication that there's a better solution.

Re: iTunes 11: the convergence of iOS and OS X design

#47

Post by jlgreco »

wlesieutre wrote: post #46
jlgreco wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 90s seem like they would have been a good time to worry about users who don't really know what computers are. Why are we now driving for that market when everyone under the age of 30 grew up using modern computers? Are we still gunning from the mostly imaginary "grandmother who doesn't know how to use computers" market? The market that 1) is only shrinking, if indeed it ever existed and 2) presumably doesn't buy…

I have family members who have used Apple products since at least System 7 (probably earlier, that's the first one I can remember). But they're still more comfortable with an iPad than a Mac. There are a ton of things that we assume are second nature, but are really learned skills. I think the notion that applications that aren't in the dock still exist (in the Applications folder) is starting to sink in, but install…

> I knew people when I was in high school...

Yeah, these people exist, but I think they are a dying breed. Children who grew up using computers are not going to have these problems. I think our obsession with this dying breed of computer users is very convenient, since it paints a narrative of "regular users (read: most users) are so much dumber than we are."

It strokes our ego to believe that dumbing down interfaces is necessary.

Re: iTunes 11: the convergence of iOS and OS X design

#48

Post by [deleted] »

radley wrote: post #38
radley wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- parlor trick animations everywhere - Sandboxing non-App store apps - obfuscating "active" icon for running apps - daffy notification center - hidden user Library - focus on weaker iOS UI w/ fullscreen apps and Launchpad - half-ass support for multiple monitors (fullscreen, auto-brightness) - iTunes 11 dumbed down to iPad version - Time Machine won't restore previous Apple apps - massive Finder UI bugs (lists don't…

Anonymous downvoters: how am I wrong? I've been exclusively Mac for almost 20 years so I know the difference.

[deleted]

Re: iTunes 11: the convergence of iOS and OS X design

#49

Post by w1ntermute »

Derbasti wrote: post #45
w1ntermute wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Windows 8, the same thing is happening to Windows, leaving Linux as the only real "desktop" OS. Even there, you have stuff like Unity, but Linux's flexibility lets you choose not to use it. This is what my Xubuntu desktop looks like, and I don't intend to change it any time soon: http://i.imgur.com/mVAey.png

I am keeping a keen eye on Linux. I'm not quite disgruntled enough with OS X, but I'm getting there. If Apple and Microsoft will continue on their current trajectory, I am confident that I'll switch over to Linux in two or three years. And I think I won't be the only one. And I think we tech people are always the head of the wave. We are the early adopters. If Apple and Microsoft manage to drive us to Linux en masse,…

Here's a post from yesterday by me about my experiences with Linux on an ultrabook, I think it's quite indicative of the advances we've seen in the Linux PC world over the last 3-5 years: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4848375

Re: iTunes 11: the convergence of iOS and OS X design

#50

Post by yen223 »

super_mario wrote: post #30

To me the usability has suffered quite a bit with the update. Everything is a little further away in terms of how many clicks it takes to get to it. Until you show the sidebar that is. I'm glad to see the side bar now has color. But why is it off by default? Just for the sake of change? And why is the keyboard shortcut/menu item the only way to show it (i.e. UI is not discoverable)? And why is the iTunes icon a music…

It would be nice if Apple made a music player which only plays music. It is quite confusing to tell people that to download apps for the iPhone, they need to open iTunes, instead of the more appropriately-named App Store.
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