A Warning for Airbnb Hosts • Hacker News Board

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#41

Post by anigbrowl » Fri, Nov 30, 2012, 10:31 PM UTC

tjic wrote: post #23

bilbo0s wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...If you take AirBNB to its logical conclusion, you end up with landlords renting apartments on AirBNB instead of to actual residents, because they can make more that way..." This is exactly what happens in Paris. Housing market there is skewed due to exactly this behavior. People buy apartments and sit on them to rent them out short term. Over time it created a situation where people who I would classify as "worki…

> This is exactly what happens in Paris. Housing market there is skewed due to exactly this behavior. Under any sane market, untapped demand creates its own supply. Big cities, though, have big governments that forbid new construction. This works very well for those who already own property (they have their rental prices driven up), and works very well for the politicians (who get donations from the existing property…

Not everyone who owns property is a landlord, so that alone blows a giant hole in your thesis. The older a city is, the more people want it to stay the same because they bought their property based on a certain set of assumptions, like a place being a quiet neighborhood or so.

Property owners do have an interest in the use and enjoyment of their property, and it is they, rather than government itself, that tend to raise a fuss when new construction is proposed. After all, local government makes quite a lot of money from new construction - permit fees, increased spending by construction workers, increased tax revenue on the newly developed property, and so forth. Likewise, politicians get donations from developers, and often larger ones than from residents since developers have deeper pockets. On the other hand, developers only have one vote each and tend to be outnumbered by residents, whose interests often prevail for this reason.

If you own your own home, you would probably not be thrilled if the lot next door was suddenly the site of a ten-story apartment building without you being consulted or compensated. If you don't like it, it's not like you can just move, and selling your property might involve a rather steep loss, depending on the quality and configuration of the new development. If you rent, it's easy to be indifferent to those considerations because you don't have any assets at risk.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#42

Post by ChuckMcM » Fri, Nov 30, 2012, 10:33 PM UTC

An interesting story. What is more interesting is that it sets up the entire game.

Cities cap rents in an effort to rein in rapacious landlords, this 'traps' money in the system (whenever you artificially price something you open up the possibility that there is demand in excess of supply). AirBnb figures out a scheme to liberate that trapped money by enlisting the folks who are benefiting from the cap (tenants) at the expense of the folks who aren't getting the money (landlords).

So it is totally in the selfish interest of landlords to hire a third party, have them avail themselves of the service at any building where the landlord has tenants and such a service is in violation of the rent, and then to use the resulting lease violation to evict the tenant, allowing rent to rise and then capturing the money for themselves.

Its really really really important to read your lease. Seriously.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#43

Post by tomkarlo » Fri, Nov 30, 2012, 10:33 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #17

woah wrote: post #11

I'm wondering if anyone can illuminate us on the ostensible purpose of these types of regulations. I'm assuming it's to maintain some sort of control and regulation over those who would establish unlicensed hotels on a commercial scale? For the welfare of the guests I suppose? I imagine in a world before the internet, this kind of thing was actually quite necessary. It would have been much harder to know any sort of…

> I'm wondering if anyone can illuminate us on the ostensible purpose of these types of regulations. Adam Smith is useful here. All regulation is created on behalf of business interests and is justified through the public interest. Business Interest: If everybody rented extra unused "space" and the market was fluid, this would substantially impact the profitability of the hospitality industry. Public Interest: Who wa…

There's a security issue as well: Most buildings base their security on the idea that only tenants, or limited guests of tenants, will be allowed through the front door and into the complex.

If the next door apartment starts renting to a different person each night, the security (perceived or not) that you once had inside your building or complex has been compromised.

Also, having an apartment on your floor that's being rented out often means the social norms associated with close neighbors aren't respected in terms of noise, etc.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#44

Post by fmitchell0 » Fri, Nov 30, 2012, 10:33 PM UTC

This actually seems like an avenue for revenue for municipalities who have budget shortfalls.

Create short-term, non-complicated licenses that expire after a couple of days. Require signature of surrounding neighbors. Charge $25.

I can see that being good to the coffers.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#45

Post by bitcartel » Fri, Nov 30, 2012, 10:33 PM UTC

jcdavis wrote: post #27

woah wrote: post #11

I'm wondering if anyone can illuminate us on the ostensible purpose of these types of regulations. I'm assuming it's to maintain some sort of control and regulation over those who would establish unlicensed hotels on a commercial scale? For the welfare of the guests I suppose? I imagine in a world before the internet, this kind of thing was actually quite necessary. It would have been much harder to know any sort of…

I live in SF and I have no issue with landlords evicting tenants who were being AirBnB hosts. Realize that: 1) The housing market in SF is crazy right now (obviously this is hardly their fault) 2) There are thousands of available AirBnB rooms available in SF. A quick search far out returns over 2700 - thats 2700 (or more) rooms that people could be living in. 3) San Francisco has very strict rent control (whether or…

Worth watching:

Growing up poor in San Francisco. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/social-issues/poor-k...

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#46

Post by tomkarlo » Fri, Nov 30, 2012, 10:35 PM UTC

duked wrote: post #19

jrockway wrote: post #12

Today, I crossed the street in the middle of the block because it was more convenient than walking to a corner, waiting for the light, and then backtracking along the other side of the street. This is illegal, but I did it anyway because the reward was higher than the near-zero risk that I would get in trouble for doing it. People that run illegal hotels are doing the same thing: for every million guests, one guy get…

Your reasoning would be "ok" if Airbnb would absorb the cost of the fine. The problem here is that all the illegal part is done by the airbnb customer who offers his short term rental on the site and he is the one who has to pay the fine if any.

It's like if made an navigation app that tells you all the best places to jaywalk (and sold it to you), but failed to tell you that it's likely to eventually cost you $150.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#47

Post by anigbrowl » Fri, Nov 30, 2012, 10:40 PM UTC

nsp wrote: post #40

tomkarlo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me how commercial fire codes / building codes protect hotels but not consumers. (Edited from "instead of" to "but not", since the original assertion was that they only help hotel owners.)

They don't help people who want to make a new hotel, but they increase barriers to entry into the hotel marketplace, which benefits established players in the space. An analogous case is federal/iihs car safety regulations - since it costs xx million to get a car federally certified, you didn't see that many automotive startups until pretty recently, and we don't get a lot of European cars since it would cost to much…

We get plenty of European cars. The only European brands that I've never seen in the US are Seat and Citroen, neither of which is especially competitive even within Europe. Car safety regulations are not there just to aid established players, as evidenced by the fact that US car companies have often strenuously opposed them.

They do reduce injuries and deaths from car accidents, which otherwise impose a high cost upon society.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#48

Post by danielweber » Fri, Nov 30, 2012, 10:40 PM UTC

tomkarlo wrote: post #5

rm999 wrote: post #3

Five figure fines are completely unreasonable, the fault lies with NYC and the hotels who lobbied for these laws. Short-term housing is really bad for a city whose economy benefits so much from tourism; tiny hotel rooms start at 250/night. Airbnb is a really optimal solution. My neighbor is an airbnb apartment. At first it bothered me that new people were staying there every week, but I realized the benefits. The peo…

Lodging laws aren't there just to protect hotels. They exist to protect consumers and residents as well by setting standards for safety, etc. and helping pay for the services provided to guests by the municipality. If you take AirBNB to its logical conclusion, you end up with landlords renting apartments on AirBNB instead of to actual residents, because they can make more that way -- because they're ducking the rules…

If the complaint is that there are taxes that AirBnB lessors are avoiding, the solution is to have them pay the taxes.

(I understand there are other issues as well. I don't want my neighbor running a hotel.)

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#49

Post by izak30 » Fri, Nov 30, 2012, 10:42 PM UTC

beatpanda wrote: post #35

This is why trying to commodify sharing is a bad idea. CouchSurfing > AirBNB, Hitch hiking > Zimride, Sidecar, etc. There's still no enforceable law against generosity.

Lots of places have laws about soliciting rides by the side of the road though.

Re: A Warning for Airbnb Hosts

#50

Post by tatsuke95 » Fri, Nov 30, 2012, 10:42 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #4

So AirBnB is supposed to know the laws of every single city/town/village/condo or home owner's association, or does this guy think New York is "special"?

>So AirBnB is supposed to know the laws of every single city/town/village/condo or home owner's association, or does this guy think New York is "special"?

That's half the point. The other half is that nearly everyone who rents out spaces on AirBnB is likely breaking a local law or tenant agreement. These laws occur on a broad enough scale, globally, that the customer should be warned.