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San Francisco Weighs PG&E Takeover Amid Soaring Utility Costs

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Re: San Francisco Weighs PG&E Takeover Amid Soaring Utility Costs

#61

Post by saltcured »

winocm wrote: post #27

On the note of PG&E, my electric bill averages to about $750 despite only running an air conditioner, several device chargers, a router, some lights and a fridge... Thanks PG&E.

Are these "device chargers" for BEVs like electric submarines or something? ;-)

In the broader SF Bay Area, our recent PG&E bills for a 50 year old single-family home without air-conditioning is under $150/mo, with a couple fridges, electric clothes dryer, and a half-dozen laptop class computers. That's averaging about 8-9 kWh per day (250-280 kWh/month).

Last winter, our bill ramped up to over $400/mo for a few months, due to heating with natural gas.

Re: San Francisco Weighs PG&E Takeover Amid Soaring Utility Costs

#62

Post by naturalmovement »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #58
naturalmovement wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No wonder people are fleeing California in droves. There is absolutely no justification for a bill that high other than malfeasance or gross mismanagement. That is straight-up theft of your money. For comparison, I have double that plus electric appliances and a home-lab with 6 rack servers that run 24/7 and my bill rarely tops $175 in the dead of summer. And I like the thermostat cold . If you live in a duplex or co…

> No wonder people are fleeing California in droves “Fleeing” is hyperbole. Population is roughly flat [1]. [1] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/CA/PST045224

Both can be true.

There could be people fleeing that have lived there for some time, while being supplanted with newcomers. That would have a net zero effect.

Re: San Francisco Weighs PG&E Takeover Amid Soaring Utility Costs

#63

Post by plorkyeran »

hunterpayne wrote: post #50
namuol wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What rates are you being charged?

CA rates come in 4 tranches based on usage. Last I checked, its $0.10/kwh for the first tranch, 0.2 for the 2nd, 0.3 for the 3rd and 0.4 for the highest. I don't remember the cutoffs between the different levels. Its also possible those rates have changed in the last few years. But that's how CA does residential power bills. Most people never get into the 2nd tranche. PS Where I live now, its $0.04/kwh and that's pre…

That is not at all how PG&E billing works. You can see the current rates and billing structure at https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/resid....

Re: San Francisco Weighs PG&E Takeover Amid Soaring Utility Costs

#64

Post by JumpCrisscross »

naturalmovement wrote: post #62
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No wonder people are fleeing California in droves “Fleeing” is hyperbole. Population is roughly flat [1]. [1] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/CA/PST045224

Both can be true. There could be people fleeing that have lived there for some time, while being supplanted with newcomers. That would have a net zero effect.

I’m not sure why that counts as a useful definition of fleeing within the context of economic conditions.

Re: San Francisco Weighs PG&E Takeover Amid Soaring Utility Costs

#65

Post by m463 »

hunterpayne wrote: post #49
Veliladon wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Compare to Santa Clara, which has their own well run utility, and charges less than half PG&E rates. This. Lived in Santa Clara. SVP is the best utility in California.

100% of its generation and grid stability is provided by PG&E. All it provides is the local distro and local maintenance. Also, in a low generation scenario, you are the first to be cut off to save the rest of the grid.

I thought PG&E bought their generation wholesale (~ 3-4c/kwh)

https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/prices

Re: San Francisco Weighs PG&E Takeover Amid Soaring Utility Costs

#66

Post by chrisss395 »

infotainment wrote: post #7

The angle of this that people may not realize is that San Francisco already owns the power generation (ie, the Hetch Hetchy dam). [1] PG&E simply owns the wires, and overcharges for their use. [1]: https://www.sfpuc.gov/about-us/our-systems/hetch-hetchy-powe...

Is this at all similar to what happened with telecoms? For some reason that is what popped in to my head.

Re: San Francisco Weighs PG&E Takeover Amid Soaring Utility Costs

#67

Post by chrisss395 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56

PG&E is a failure. It’s wild prioritizing its reform and replacement isn’t seen as the existential threat to California Democrats’ national ambitions that it rightfully is. Distribution shouldn’t be this expensive nor cause this many fires. If the cost of distributing power to remote, fire-prone communities isn’t politically feasible to push to them directly, the cities should be put on a separate distribution system…

Wouldn't distribution naturally be the more expensive part vs. electricity generation given the latter is centralized and scaled? Perhaps this is a fallacy, but that is the thought that crossed my mind.

Re: San Francisco Weighs PG&E Takeover Amid Soaring Utility Costs

#68

Post by hunterpayne »

plorkyeran wrote: post #63
hunterpayne wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CA rates come in 4 tranches based on usage. Last I checked, its $0.10/kwh for the first tranch, 0.2 for the 2nd, 0.3 for the 3rd and 0.4 for the highest. I don't remember the cutoffs between the different levels. Its also possible those rates have changed in the last few years. But that's how CA does residential power bills. Most people never get into the 2nd tranche. PS Where I live now, its $0.04/kwh and that's pre…

That is not at all how PG&E billing works. You can see the current rates and billing structure at https://www.pge.com/assets/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/resid... .

So its completely changed since 2022 (last time I paid a PG&E bill). And the prices are multiple times more than in 2022 too. I didn't realize it had gotten so bad.

Re: San Francisco Weighs PG&E Takeover Amid Soaring Utility Costs

#69

Post by hunterpayne »

m463 wrote: post #65
hunterpayne wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% of its generation and grid stability is provided by PG&E. All it provides is the local distro and local maintenance. Also, in a low generation scenario, you are the first to be cut off to save the rest of the grid.

I thought PG&E bought their generation wholesale (~ 3-4c/kwh) https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/prices

Some generation PG&E owns, some is in a shared vehicle split between PG&E and a group of private investors, some is owned by other utilities (Edison) and some is just privately owned. Remember that generation was built up over 70 years. Different plants at different times with different politics ends up with different ownership arrangements. They all bid into CAISO and independently choose to produce or not based upon prices. The generators sell futures contracts and PG&E (and Edison) buy them either in 1 day cycles or 15 minute cycles (almost always some of both).

Re: San Francisco Weighs PG&E Takeover Amid Soaring Utility Costs

#70

Post by casey2 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #58
naturalmovement wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No wonder people are fleeing California in droves. There is absolutely no justification for a bill that high other than malfeasance or gross mismanagement. That is straight-up theft of your money. For comparison, I have double that plus electric appliances and a home-lab with 6 rack servers that run 24/7 and my bill rarely tops $175 in the dead of summer. And I like the thermostat cold . If you live in a duplex or co…

> No wonder people are fleeing California in droves “Fleeing” is hyperbole. Population is roughly flat [1]. [1] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/CA/PST045224

Shrinking every year. Not good. ~40% people under 40 (or ~10% of the population) live with their parents. This is an indirect tax on parents since a majority of this class has no option to evict their kids.

North Korea has a stable population, people flee all the time. The comparison is apt. California's 4-walled fences are much tighter around their residents.

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