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A 'cold blob' in the Atlantic could be a sign of AMOC shutdown

cnn.com

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Re: A 'cold blob' in the Atlantic could be a sign of AMOC shutdown

#371

Post by eckesicle »

blindriver wrote: post #284
eckesicle wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Until someone can reconcile these facts, and they can say distinctively that the rise in temperature we see right now isn't the same reason as before, I'm going to believe that temperature will moderate and cool, just like it did in the past. Would you indulge me and see if this one chart might change your mind? It includes each of your data points. https://xkcd.com/1732/

A cartoon purporting to know the localized temperatures around the world going back 20,000 years is not science.

The journal articles the chart is based on are referenced in light grey on the side, if you prefer to view the same data in a peer reviewed article format with a more serious font.

Re: A 'cold blob' in the Atlantic could be a sign of AMOC shutdown

#372

Post by triceratops »

graeme wrote: post #269
Loquebantur wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of average individuals being the relevant actors in global carbon emissions is pure misdirection. They're not, it's systemic with industry being the main culprit and the rich being the ones who benefit from that socialization of pollution costs. The AMOC shutdown isn't merely "possible" and due "this century" either. The math of the dynamics of complex systems shows the current behavior to be signs of a phas…

This isn't true at all. If all of the global rich immediately became carbonless monks....we would cut only a portion of emissions. And continuing to emit increases global warming. Even if you estimate that the top 1% use 70% of our carbon (implausible) that still just pushes threshold back a few decades. And if industry stopped producing with carbon billions would starve. Industry makes stuff for people. Energy is us…

> Even if you estimate that the top 1% use 70% of our carbon (implausible) that still just pushes threshold back a few decades.

Getting a few more decades to handle this thing would be amazing!

Re: A 'cold blob' in the Atlantic could be a sign of AMOC shutdown

#373

Post by triceratops »

kruffalon wrote: post #174
gorjusborg wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an important distinction: what is good for ecology is not necessarily good for economy. If we need unbounded growth to jeep our economic system to function, its the economic system that is wrong, not nature.

Capitalist economy. Economies can exist in many different ways. At its core it is just a way to describe how we move resources between ourselves and that can be done in many, many ways.

Non-capitalist economies don't really have a better record on environmental protection. It's almost like the problem is human nature, not the specific economic system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster#Environment...

Re: A 'cold blob' in the Atlantic could be a sign of AMOC shutdown

#374

Post by triceratops »

Avicebron wrote: post #72
CalRobert wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crazy thing is that we have basically everything we need right now. You can live in a well-insulated fully electric home powered by renewable energy and have most things you need within a walk, bike, or public transport ride away, _OR_ use an electric car for the things that aren't. If you combine that with a mostly-plant based diet (or at _least_ swapping chicken for most of your beef and lamb) and have 2 kids o…

> You can live in a well-insulated fully electric home powered by renewable energy and have most things you need within a walk, bike, or public transport ride away, _OR_ use an electric car for the things that aren't. For this to be the most effective it really needs to be deployed somewhere like India. How are they coming along with that?

> For this to be the most effective it really needs to be deployed somewhere like India

Why? Most people there already live like that, minus insulation and reliable electricity.

Re: A 'cold blob' in the Atlantic could be a sign of AMOC shutdown

#375

Post by triceratops »

dmitrygr wrote: post #79
CalRobert wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crazy thing is that we have basically everything we need right now. You can live in a well-insulated fully electric home powered by renewable energy and have most things you need within a walk, bike, or public transport ride away, _OR_ use an electric car for the things that aren't. If you combine that with a mostly-plant based diet (or at _least_ swapping chicken for most of your beef and lamb) and have 2 kids o…

Western nations reducing will DO nothing - it is too small a fraction of greenhouse emissions. The large fraction is coming form india and china. And they do not have electric everything. they don't even have running water in most places.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-co2-emissions-... Western developed countries have emitted 54% of all CO2 in history.

India and China today emit more than Europe and North America combined. https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions

China's solar panel and battery manufacturing industries are humanity's best chance of "electric everything". Without them we're all cooked.

Re: A 'cold blob' in the Atlantic could be a sign of AMOC shutdown

#376

Post by triceratops »

Jeff_Brown wrote: post #80
jackyinger wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The skepticism is from people who are making money emitting CO2 and don’t want to stop making money in the same old way. It is well documented that oil companies have been sewing skepticism for decades, go figure.

The idea that a producer is at fault and not also the consumer paying them to do that is strange to me.

Consumers pay because:

1. There's no option

2. Oil companies lied to them about safety

Re: A 'cold blob' in the Atlantic could be a sign of AMOC shutdown

#377

Post by oldandboring »

CalRobert wrote: post #66
yoyohello13 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve come to terms with the fact that there is no stopping human consumption. It is simply not possible to get enough people to reduce to make an impact. The failure of the environment movements over the last 60 years are proof. The only way is ‘up and out’ developing clean, cheap methods of energy generation and lobbying to get that infrastructure built out as quickly as possible. At this point, investing more in Fo…

The crazy thing is that we have basically everything we need right now. You can live in a well-insulated fully electric home powered by renewable energy and have most things you need within a walk, bike, or public transport ride away, _OR_ use an electric car for the things that aren't. If you combine that with a mostly-plant based diet (or at _least_ swapping chicken for most of your beef and lamb) and have 2 kids o…

Let me guess: you live in a European city.

Re: A 'cold blob' in the Atlantic could be a sign of AMOC shutdown

#378

Post by gorjusborg »

triceratops wrote: post #373
kruffalon wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalist economy. Economies can exist in many different ways. At its core it is just a way to describe how we move resources between ourselves and that can be done in many, many ways.

Non-capitalist economies don't really have a better record on environmental protection. It's almost like the problem is human nature, not the specific economic system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster#Environment...

It seems it may be 'animal nature'. We maximize our benefit until the environment limits us, and humans have become 'too good' at it, increasing stakes to a global scale.

Re: A 'cold blob' in the Atlantic could be a sign of AMOC shutdown

#379

Post by qsera »

Y-bar wrote: post #29
skeledrew wrote: post #26

Meh who cares? Let it all burn and flood. Earth gets a fresh start, and hopefully whatever "intelligent" species evolves to be dominant in the next 5-10 million years is a better custodian. Rinse and repeat until that's the case. Heck, who knows if this is actually the 1st or 100th iteration...

The rich, who have disproportionately contributed to the current crisis can buy and relocate to safety, while the poor will be hit the hardest.

Isn't that the ultimate reason to be rich? Isn't the ultimate incentive? The rich have built roads, infrastructure, done research and improve QoL for everyone. We payed them and they grew even more rich.

And when the judgement day come, you are going to deny everything you have paid them? That was the whole contract!

I get that we can't help but be dumb and consume and enable some entities to be so rich. But then we should not blame the rich!

Re: A 'cold blob' in the Atlantic could be a sign of AMOC shutdown

#380

Post by drc500free »

intended wrote: post #214
drc500free wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon taxes are massively regressive. There is no political coalition that simultaneously wants to act against climate change and doesn’t mind driving further income inequality.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t have one comment talk about consumption being the root of all ill, then another comment stating that reducing consumption is regressive.

I’ve only made one comment here.
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