Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

swissinfo.ch

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 289 posts

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#231

Post by vrganj »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #19
abc03 wrote: post #16

Maybe a personal analysis: It's a trend that is growing all over Europe. It's the equivalent of overtourism and a problem for the ruling parties (except the SVP that proposed it). Expect it to continue quite soon in Switzerland and other European countries (France, Germany etc.). Of course it doesn't make sense to curb immigration at 10 Mio and many know it. It was also for many a vote against the ruling parties. Alt…

> It's a trend that is growing all over Europe The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entirely to members creates a fundamental tension the EU needs to resolve. Because otherwise, Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly, which is bound to generate backlash even if they run a perfect programme.

[dead]

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#232

Post by includenotfound »

tonfa wrote: post #75
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You do realize German nationals (followed by French) are the top contingent in term of immigration to Swizerland Yes. I’m also conceding to the SVP the observation that a good fraction of said nationals are recently naturalized.

If the SVP says it, it must be true :) What's their sources? I'm sure they could find a couple of anecdotes, doesn't make it significant.

Assume it's true for the sake of argument. Do you think that would be an issue then?

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#233

Post by includenotfound »

stephbook wrote: post #25
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a trend that is growing all over Europe The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entirely to members creates a fundamental tension the EU needs to resolve. Because otherwise, Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly, which is bound to generate backlash even if they run a perfect programme.

Is this Berlin that decides anything and rolls it out contintent-wide with us in the room right now?

Spain is legalizing 500k immigrants: https://www.nbcnews.com/world/spain/spain-legalizing-half-mi...

Not quite Berlin, but same effect: nearly indiscriminate influx of poorly vetted immigrants that can soon travel all around Europe.

So yes, it's with us in the room, just not right now, but very soon.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#234

Post by includenotfound »

leejo wrote: post #136
blockmarker wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

27% of Swiss residents were born outside the country. Can there ever be a limit to immigration, or will it always mean you are literally Hitler and want to exterminate millions?

> 27% of Swiss residents were born outside the country. Swiss nationality is not linked to your birth country, it is linked to lineage. There are second, third, (fourth, fifth, sixth?) generation immigrants in Switzerland that are not Swiss. Conversly, there are Swiss nationals that have never set foot in Switzerland.

The point OP is making is that Switzerland undisputably has a very large proportion of immigrant population and that adding more should be carefully considered for various legitimate reasons, but it looks like you chose to be willfully ignorant.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#235

Post by includenotfound »

Arodex wrote: post #187
kgwgk wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Immigrants can't vote on federal votations, dumbass. […] And naturalized immigrants can!

When do they stop being immigrants? If you think people who waited more than a decade and paid a hefty sum to affirm their will to be citizens are second-class (or maybe even traitors!) compared to people who became citizen by making no effort and were just born that way...

I recently got the Swiss passport but I'm still very much an immigrant. I am also a dual citizen, and frankly, hold not much love for this country. It's a secondary thing to me, the way having a nice car is: yeah it's nice, yeah I wouldn't want to give it up, but no it's not my identity and it's not the end of the world, despite me possessing it.

I did not "wait" for it. I came here, worked a bunch, made more money than I would've in my home country, and got the passport mostly so that I can have a refuge in case of severe war, and to have better travel opportunities.

Blame me all you want, I'm giving you the honest view many (most?) of us have, that you won't hear in society for obvious reasons. Lifelong culture, values, family, and friends do not change because a person worked in a given country for N years and filled some paperwork to get a passport, and to think otherwise is NONSENSE.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#236

Post by dyauspitr »

Saline9515 wrote: post #203
dyauspitr wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slaves my ass. If they had it worse than where they were coming from they wouldn’t be there. It’s also not just less restaurants, it’s wiping out the main streets of most small towns like conglomerates did in the US and that the US has been able to painfully rebuild because of Mexican/immigrant labor in the kitchens and back offices. And that’s not mentioning the immigrants that essentially run the entire US economic…

I don't care if working here in a sweatshop is marginally better. I don't want Indian dalits being used to be treated like outcasts in their host society and earning 100€ a month to be the lowest bidder for work in mine. Besides, what you say is plainly false. Hairdressers are for instance in majority locals, command rather high rates, and are in demand. Maybe we also don't need 6 malls per medium-sized town either.

Of course you don’t care. You don’t have to worry about how a nation functions. You want your wages to be high, taxes low and your social welfare to keep functioning with a 0.9 birth rate.

Also, I don’t believe very many Dalits actually end up leaving India. Indian affirmative action means they essentially get a lot of the best college spots and governments jobs and it’s too cushy to leave.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#237

Post by throw1234567891 »

vrganj wrote: post #230
throw1234567891 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t want Germans around!

They don't mind Austrians tho. Germans are kind of disliked in the rest of DACH.

That one Austrian guy some time ago brought a lot of wealth to the Swiss. Who could blame them.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#238

Post by Saline9515 »

Larrikin wrote: post #195
mrtksn wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No no, they would have totally done it if the immigrants didn’t suppress the wages and the pay was %15 higher. Now they need to do some office jobs for 5 times the pay since the unemployment rate is %3. There are no Swiss sitting around and not cleaning the sewers because the pay was too low, it will have to fetch workers from other industries.

Immigrants do not suppress wages, business owners do. The solution there is the same solution as the US. If the US introduced a (for example) 4x median salary fine for every year an employer employed someone not legally eligible to work the problem would fix itself. If they did not keep records assume 5 years or whenever the person's visa expired, since that is the most common case of illegal immigration. But the bus…

This kind of argument is the same as "guns don't kill people". Yes they do.

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#239

Post by Saline9515 »

dyauspitr wrote: post #236
Saline9515 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care if working here in a sweatshop is marginally better. I don't want Indian dalits being used to be treated like outcasts in their host society and earning 100€ a month to be the lowest bidder for work in mine. Besides, what you say is plainly false. Hairdressers are for instance in majority locals, command rather high rates, and are in demand. Maybe we also don't need 6 malls per medium-sized town either.

Of course you don’t care. You don’t have to worry about how a nation functions. You want your wages to be high, taxes low and your social welfare to keep functioning with a 0.9 birth rate. Also, I don’t believe very many Dalits actually end up leaving India. Indian affirmative action means they essentially get a lot of the best college spots and governments jobs and it’s too cushy to leave.

Actually, if wages are high and taxes are low, chances are that the birth rate will rise :-)

And yes, the principle of public policy should be to care for one's own people first. Maybe India should have not been so nationalistic and allowed the English rulers to stay, so that financiers in London could continue to make fortunes out of the empire? How petty and egoistical of the Indians, right?

Re: Swiss voters reject proposal to cap population at ten million

#240

Post by dyauspitr »

Saline9515 wrote: post #239
dyauspitr wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you don’t care. You don’t have to worry about how a nation functions. You want your wages to be high, taxes low and your social welfare to keep functioning with a 0.9 birth rate. Also, I don’t believe very many Dalits actually end up leaving India. Indian affirmative action means they essentially get a lot of the best college spots and governments jobs and it’s too cushy to leave.

Actually, if wages are high and taxes are low, chances are that the birth rate will rise :-) And yes, the principle of public policy should be to care for one's own people first. Maybe India should have not been so nationalistic and allowed the English rulers to stay, so that financiers in London could continue to make fortunes out of the empire? How petty and egoistical of the Indians, right?

> Actually, if wages are high and taxes are low, chances are that the birth rate will rise

Absolutely incorrect. There is not one case of this happening, infact it’s the exact opposite. It’s a common fallacy.

The only correlation for birth rate is that it is inversely correlated with women’s education.

Post reply on HN