Live data from Hacker News

Electric motors with no rare earths

renaultgroup.com

111–120 of 231 posts

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#111
Clearly making a motor with induced magnetic fields both for the stator and rotor isn't the innovation here, since a large fraction of industrial motors do not have permanent magnets.

I would assume the innovation here would need to be making it small and efficient for any meaningful torque output? Usually when you see claims of a 93% efficient electrical motor its the result of taking an absolute beast of a 2kW machine and operating it at 400W. Does anyone have insights into what Renault are doing here?

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also helps that they are made from aluminum which doesn’t rust like iron does.

And epoxy binds to aluminum just fine ? Epoxy is weird. What solid material does it NOT bond to ?

Polyethylene, like they use in food containers. Virtually nothing sticks to it unless specifically designed.

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also helps that they are made from aluminum which doesn’t rust like iron does.

And epoxy binds to aluminum just fine ? Epoxy is weird. What solid material does it NOT bond to ?

It does not bond to polypropylene and other low surface energy plastics

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#115
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been there. Im gonna guess that 90% of HN folk have similar stories to tell.

The Cub Scouts in the 1960s were a lot of fun. Each den meeting involved a project. The other one I remember was we each built a kite from scratch. Mine was a bit fragile, and the first gust of wind shredded the sticks and plastic film. But it was still fun! As a teen I built a flame thrower. No, I'm not going to explain how to build one. My dad told me that God looks out for little boys, because otherwise they'd nev…

"Rocket Manual for Amateurs" was my favorite book after I found it in 8th grade. In high school I had a chem teacher who would give me chemicals so I could experiment with what I'd read. A great book for budding Raketenkinder.

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bit the gets me more than the sale price is servicing. BMWs have a terrible record for needing expensive repairs. I know you shouldn’t rely on anecdote, but it seems I do.

The only way I would buy a BMW is if it were an EV. I’m just not brave (or rich) enough to buy their ICEs.

The BMW inline 6 were the best engines ever. Their inline 4 and other are a strong contender for the worst engines ever.

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's also a plastic liner on them that I'm sure helps.

It also helps that they are made from aluminum which doesn’t rust like iron does.

It rusts just like iron, but the rust (AlOx, or alumina) stays bonded to the metal and actually protects it.

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#118
post #35

Electrically excited synchronous machines (EESMs), also known as wound field synchronous machines (WFSMs) have a number of potential advantages and disadvantages compared to interior permanent magnet synchronous machines (IPMSMs). IPMSMs are the dominant motor topology currently in use for North American electric vehicles. Advantages: - Not subject to the price and supply chain volatility of rare earth permanent magn…

I see another advantage..

You can switch a motor without permanent magnets to "idle mode".

I understand in Tesla dual motor configurations, the front motor is without magnets. The excitation field will be turned on when you need extra power, but at crusing speed it does not cause extra "drag". From one teardown I've seen, they even went so far to use cheaper and less efficient IGBTs for the front drive, and more efficient SiC Mosfets for the rear motor (in the same vehicle!). If you need extra acceleration briefly, lower efficiency can be accepted.

Re: Electric motors with no rare earths

#120
Unfortunately, their Web page does not say a single word about the important problems of their motors.

The electrically excited synchronous motors have been known forever, but they had not been used in EVs because of 2 disadvantages.

The first is that traditional EESMs require brushes, i.e. sliding electrical contacts, which are worn out by friction, so such motors require frequent maintenance for changing the brushes.

It is possible to make brushless EESMs, but they require a rotating transformer and a semiconductor rectifier inside the rotor.

The second disadvantage is a lower efficiency than with permanent magnets, which cannot be improved so much as to match PM motors, because the electrical currents that circulate through the rotor windings must generate heat. The lower efficiency also makes cooling more difficult.

Renault says that their EESMs have an efficiency of 92%. This is a good efficiency, even if not as good as attainable with permanent magnets. Losing a few percents in efficiency is an acceptable compromise for avoiding the use of expensive and supply-constrained chemical elements.

What I wonder is whether Renault reaches this 92% efficiency with EESMs having brushes, or with brushless EESMs, and this is what I would have liked to read on the parent Web page.

Brushless EESMs usually had a lower efficiency, so 92% would be impressive for them, while it would look normal for EESMs with brushes.

If Renault has succeeded to make a brushless EESM (i.e. maintenance-free) with an efficiency of 92%, that is something worth to brag about. Otherwise, making a traditional EESM would not be great news, because everybody has avoided those because of the maintenance problem.

Post reply on HN