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Kimi K2.7-Code: open-source coding model with better token efficiency

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Re: Kimi K2.7-Code: open-source coding model with better token efficiency

#91

Post by kennywinker »

esafak wrote: post #72
dcreater wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope we stop using the term "Chinese models". It has this air of Negative connotation. It's the equivalent of calling cars Japanese, which people used to do but now is almost entirely meaningless. You just call them Toyota, Honda, Lexus etc.

I don't think "Chinese" is pejorative in this context any more than "American" is. They are one of the two ecosystems. What's wrong with saying "Japanese cars" today?

> What's wrong with saying "Japanese cars" today?

Only that it’s a fairly meaningless grouping. When japan first entered the car market in north america there might have been some commonality, but now what characteristics do they share that some american cars don’t have? They’re not even imported a lot of the time.

Given that, it does start to feel tinged with racism if someone insists on grouping things together that don’t really belong together.

As for Chinese LLMs, the term doesn’t “feel” pejorative to me - but i also don’t see a totally clear set of attributes they share. Not all are open-weight. Some are small and can be run on consumer hardware, some are huge. They even have a variety of answers to what happened june 3rd 1989

Re: Kimi K2.7-Code: open-source coding model with better token efficiency

#92

Post by unethical_ban »

dcreater wrote: post #62
jdw64 wrote: post #43

Personally, when I use open code or routers, I feel that beyond a certain level, the models don't make a huge difference to me. Except for expensive and mediocre models like Gemini. In that sense, Chinese models are pretty good. I usually write code in function or method units and then design and assemble them together. GPT series models are more thorough and better, but I'm not sure if the difference is enormous. It…

I really hope we stop using the term "Chinese models". It has this air of Negative connotation. It's the equivalent of calling cars Japanese, which people used to do but now is almost entirely meaningless. You just call them Toyota, Honda, Lexus etc.

No thanks.

The term seems to have the connotation of "competitive at 1/10 the price of Claude", so I don't see the problem.

It's not Harbor Freight Chinese (and heck even they have decent stuff sometimes now too).

You don't think people still talk about Japanese cars as a distinction in quality from US or European ones?

Re: Kimi K2.7-Code: open-source coding model with better token efficiency

#93

Post by WarmWash »

dcreater wrote: post #79
WarmWash wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I've heard this claim before but I've never seen any evidence.

Assuming you are just naive like so many others about China...

China is a communist country with elements of capitalistic markets baked in. But the capitalistic elements are mostly a facade. Underneath, the state retains full ownership and control of all business. The CCP runs all aspects of the government (including the courts/judges), and is the single entity that decides what directions the country (and it's businesses) will move in.

The CCP, who defacto owns everything and has ultimate final say on everything, has one leader that has the ultimate final say on _everything_, Xi Jinping.

So while the waters of CCP models feel warm and free, understand it's not organically like that.

Re: Kimi K2.7-Code: open-source coding model with better token efficiency

#94

Post by sjanes »

jdw64 wrote: post #43

Personally, when I use open code or routers, I feel that beyond a certain level, the models don't make a huge difference to me. Except for expensive and mediocre models like Gemini. In that sense, Chinese models are pretty good. I usually write code in function or method units and then design and assemble them together. GPT series models are more thorough and better, but I'm not sure if the difference is enormous. It…

I've kind of given up on the routers for "free" inference, as you would expect, they tend to give you sub-par thinking because they are obviously trying to conserve as much inference as possible.

I've had some success turning my macbook M1 pro into a heating pad with Qwen 3.6 35B A3B MTP. Trying to use Gemini models "locally" resulted in a similar "short shrift" of effort resulting in mistakes and lots of turns. The reports of Fable being relentlessly "proactive" shows you can go the other direction as well, if you have strong enough branding and effective invoicing.

Re: Kimi K2.7-Code: open-source coding model with better token efficiency

#95

Post by codemog »

htrp wrote: post #49
giancarlostoro wrote: post #40

Reading their modified license terms, it cracks me up, because they've basically remade the MIT to be the MIT + the one clause that the BSD used to have, which didn't care about MAU or revenue, if you used it in a product, they asked you to 'advertise' them basically. Honestly, its a reasonable request.

This is the cursor callout. Don't make us shame you into disclosure

Shaming others when all AI is trained off scraped content and code huh? Many of those sources either breaking ToS or being illegal, such as Anna’s Archive. Bold move. And Chinese models in particular have been accused of distilling off American models.

Don’t you know there’s no honor among thieves?

Re: Kimi K2.7-Code: open-source coding model with better token efficiency

#96

Post by gruez »

yanis_t wrote: post #2

I was wondering how does Anthropic and likes keep competitive when Opus is ($5 / $25) 5x times more expensive compared to Kimi K2.6 ($0.7 / $3.4) or other Chinese models, while being only marginally better. My theory is that US enterprise just can't send data to Chinese and that's understandable, but is that "the moat"?

Your question relies on the premise that Chinese companies continue releasing free models. What's "the moat" for them continuing to do that?

Re: Kimi K2.7-Code: open-source coding model with better token efficiency

#97

Post by regularfry »

jdw64 wrote: post #43

Personally, when I use open code or routers, I feel that beyond a certain level, the models don't make a huge difference to me. Except for expensive and mediocre models like Gemini. In that sense, Chinese models are pretty good. I usually write code in function or method units and then design and assemble them together. GPT series models are more thorough and better, but I'm not sure if the difference is enormous. It…

The difference in outcome isn't that big but yes, you need to be more rigorous. For instance I've found that the Kimi K2.5 and K2.6 models will comment out failing tests rather than fix a problem they just caused (mistaking them for "pre-existing failures"), so you need to specifically make commented-out tests break the build. I've not personally had that problem with any of the Anthropic or OpenAI models.

Re: Kimi K2.7-Code: open-source coding model with better token efficiency

#98

Post by WarmWash »

well_ackshually wrote: post #78
WarmWash wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

yes, yes, the spectre of communism, BYD is the CCP, Alibaba is the CCP, stealing your children and eating them for Mao, bla bla bla. I have a feeling you'd be slightly salty at people saying "Google and Tesla are making CIA models"

Google and Tesla making products to sell to the government is different than the government funding the government to make products for the government.

In China it's all one entity with these mock facades of privatization. Trump cannot instruct Google to put picture of dogs on their homepage. If Xi wakes up and wants dogs on Alibaba's homepage, give it 30 minutes.

It's wholly ignorant or dishonest to make the comparison.

Re: Kimi K2.7-Code: open-source coding model with better token efficiency

#99

Post by sroerick »

dcreater wrote: post #62
jdw64 wrote: post #43

Personally, when I use open code or routers, I feel that beyond a certain level, the models don't make a huge difference to me. Except for expensive and mediocre models like Gemini. In that sense, Chinese models are pretty good. I usually write code in function or method units and then design and assemble them together. GPT series models are more thorough and better, but I'm not sure if the difference is enormous. It…

I really hope we stop using the term "Chinese models". It has this air of Negative connotation. It's the equivalent of calling cars Japanese, which people used to do but now is almost entirely meaningless. You just call them Toyota, Honda, Lexus etc.

I don't know, I tried using one of the Chinese models and it was VERY quick to scan my entire home dir, so maybe your threat surface is a little different than mine

Re: Kimi K2.7-Code: open-source coding model with better token efficiency

#100

Post by DCKing »

WarmWash wrote: post #80
DCKing wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any benchmark is iffy and has weird results, but this is the best we got at the moment. Most people working with Opus and Kimi would likely tell you they're much further apart than the numbers that were quoted for Kimi K2.6, and DeepSWE seems to capture that gap better. One major thing DeepSWE has going for it is that all other benchmarks (including those quoted by MoonshotAI on this page) don't: the other benchmarks…

Somehow the internet has also forgot that cheating to get ahead in China is basically a norm and expected behavior.

American labs also use gamed and cherry-picked benchmarks extensively. Anthropic used them in their Fable announcement and avoided DeepSWE because it doesn't beat GPT-5.5 in that one. Google's numbers for Gemini 3.5 Flash recently did not at all line up with people's subjective experience using these models, and this also happened with Gemini 3.1 Pro before it.

Everybody has incentives to manipulate benchmark results to show their models in the best light.

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