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Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

mayrhofer.eu.org

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Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#161
post #48
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same for me. It is the spectral signal of LLM writing. I'm a writer and last week I re-read one of my own books, that was written a few years before LLMs appeared. And I saw I used the "It's not X; it's Y" construction and I cringed, and now I have a moral dilemma: it feels so painful LLM robot speak that I want to rewrite that sentence for the next edition. But on the other hand, I want to keep it in because it is w…

What’s painful is that you’re thinking of letting robots suppress your authentic voice. Also, they got that way by copying humans, and if you continue to cede to them everything they copy, you’ll have no place left to be.

There used to be (is...?) an xkcd IRC chatroom where you were only allowed to post things that had never been said before. Violations resulted in an n-minute ban, increasing with each violation.

Maybe this is the future of all (interesting/worthwhile) human writing. Perpetually stay one step ahead of the machines.

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#162

Personally, I don't get why people blindly reject any collaboration with the military. I understand that they are pacifists, but I still don't get it. When I look at history, I see so many tragedies caused by being weak. Both Germany and the Soviet Union were able to invade Poland, for instance, and the Katyn massacre is a national scar. And who wouldn't want to defeat invaders like Genghis Khan? Have you ever heard…

I can't speak for anyone else, but as a Christian, it's really quite simple: any death that you help cause is a black mark on your soul. Maybe you can repent for it, someday. But it's not something that will just be let go when the day of reckoning comes.

Incidentally, I'd feel the same way about killing someone in self-defense.

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#163
So much bitterness in these comments, looking at the world in black and white. With 200,000 employees, google is a complex set of humans, where many will have different experiences. People doing really good work, and people doing the opposite.

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So merely contesting the notion that systemic bias is the main driver of the gender disparity in tech is grounds for instant termination? Well, that's rather troubling given that the empirical evidence on the bias in tech company hiring doesn't support the narrative of anti-female bias: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3672484 Hn discussion of the paper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2506964…

Not at all. A good faith discussion in the right forum is fine. That's not what the memo was. It ignored the evidence we have that there is systemic bias, it relied on tired and debunked tropes, and has explicit goals about preserving and elevating the privilege that perpetuates that systemic bias. That done in front of a large company filled with people personally affected by it is just a terrible idea. I'm open to…

And what evidence of systemic bias would that be?

The experiment I linked above sent monitored the callback rates of applicants sent out to Bay Area tech companies for technical roles, and saw higher callback rates for women. This is the sort of prototypical evidence we use as an example of systemic anti-Black bias where Black applicants are called back less frequently than white applicants.

Is Google, specifically, systemically biased against women? Cross-referencing the diversity reports they publish [1], with employment statistics [2] does not show an underrepresentation of women. Google has also taken controversial steps, such as tying executive performance reviews to the representation of "underrepresented groups" - that term has included women at every company I've worked at, but if that's not the case at Google please correct me. When Google conducted an investigation into whether women were underpaid, they discovered that the disparity leaned the other way [3].

Perhaps maybe some introspection is warranted on your part, and revisit the assumptions you have about gender bias at Google and in the tech industry in general.

1. https://kstatic.googleusercontent.com/files/819bcce604bf5ff7...

2. https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.htm

3. https://www.npr.org/2019/03/05/700288695/google-pay-study-fi...

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#165

[flagged]

there are plenty of people who are financially independent but who don't choose to follow their moral compass.

In the world of Big Tech, it seems a lot of moral compasses coincidentally start working after the people holding them have cashed out.

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#168

Personally, I don't get why people blindly reject any collaboration with the military. I understand that they are pacifists, but I still don't get it. When I look at history, I see so many tragedies caused by being weak. Both Germany and the Soviet Union were able to invade Poland, for instance, and the Katyn massacre is a national scar. And who wouldn't want to defeat invaders like Genghis Khan? Have you ever heard…

Indeed, I hear you 100%. It may be painful to watch "your" military engage in wars that are not righteous, from one's perspective. Are there even "righteous" conflicts these days? But short of demand to abolish all state military, what is appropriate way to express one's indignation? Hopefully all can agree that such demand would be insane; but why, then, those "pacifist" performances, which effectively are calls to deprive military of the best weapons, people, thoughts, strategies, are not considered insane?

Agree or disagree with particular foreign policy or military action, why do people forget that the bulk of military is staffed with their fellow citizens? Many of whom aren't terribly privileged to enjoy ample alternative choices to elevate themselves socially or financially. It is exactly this lot who benefits the most from DEI policies, cherished by "pacifists", is it not? It is them who are the first and most massive direct casualties, caused by not having access to the best, superior materiel, doctrine and training on and beyond the battlefield.

I'll be the first to point that military and paramilitary forces attract many with unchecked lust for violence. That "pride", "honor" and "patriotism" are often terribly misused, to uphold goals of those with impure, malicious ambitions. Who, I grant it, also disproportionately represented in the command echelons of military and beyond. But if we are honest, that scum won't be shaken or taught a lesson by SotA technology being withheld from their use or corporation refusing cooperation. It is their subordinates, who, maybe naively, subscribe to "ideal", unquoted interpretation of Pride, Honor and Patriotism, will bear the brunt of being crippled (by the consequences of the withholding and refusal) on the battlefield, and pay with their lives. Don't their lives matter?

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#169
post #24

>“Don’t Be Evil” wasn’t just a slogan (...) —it was a north star for teams making hard calls I've developed an involuntary, muscle-level reflex that forces me to close the tab immediately when I read these "not just X -- it was Y" LLMisms. I realize the author might be human and am sorry if that's the case, but I can't help it.

The author might be human, but used an LLM to help them draft the letter. Something I do sometimes is brain dump into an LLM and have it help me organize it, and then I iteratively refine what I want to say. 20 some odd years ago I read zen in the art of motorcycle maintenance, and it made the point that writing is hard when trying to decide what to say and how to say it at the same time. Just stuck with me. Brain du…

Brain dumping to a blank page and organizing your own thoughts is still an option.

Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass

#170
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sorts of scientific racism (or gender essentialism) have Jesse Signal and Deborah Soh propagated? To be clear, I'm not asking for a primer on scientific racism, I'm asking you to substantiate the allegations you made against specific individuals.

You ought to read my comment carefully. Singal (not Signal) and Soh are "major figures in transphobia", and Molyneux is a pro-fascism campaigner. The former two (Singal, Soh) are advocates of "gender essentialism", and the latter travels internationally campaigning for the "race essentialism" and policies based on that. As you're aware of both of (Singal,Soh)'s first names already, is it a fair guess that you're alre…

I'm not aware of Singal ever saying that all children who express identification outside their birth gender are actually just same-sex attracted (I'm less familiar with Soh's work). Rather, his point is that the guidance given to parents to identify signs of gender dysphoria is often rooted in gender essentialism. For instance, playing with the "wrong" toys for their birth gender is promoted as a sign of gender dysphoria [1].

Surely you'd agree that if a natal male says he is a boy and when asked why he replies "because I'm attracted to boys", then the responsible reply is "it's okay to be a gay boy", and not "yes, because you're attracted to boys you are a girl." It's certainly possible that a child will persist in expressing and opposite-sex gender even after exploring identity as a gay boy and will follow through with transition. But surely the responsible thing to do is to make sure that the child first understands that there's nothing wrong with being a boy attracted to other boys. First, eliminate the possibility that the boy is identifying as a girl out of a gender-essentialist belief that boys are only attracted to girls and he has to be a girl to attract boys. If after that, if the child still expresses a cross-sex gender identity then explore transitioning.

I don't think Singal has ever said that all - or even a majority - of children expressing a cross-sex gender identity are actually just same-sex attracted cis people. He only takes issue with legislation in some jurisdictions effectively prohibit medical professionals from exploring a gay male identity in this scenario, and effectively mandate social affirmation the moment a patients expressed a cross sex gender identity.

Even if you disagree with the above, surely at least you understand why I'm confused about the allegation that Singal is promoting gender essentialism. His concern is that gender essentialism is being misdiagnosed as gender dysphoria, and people aren't doing enough to accept boys wearing dresses, being attracted to other boys, and behaving in "feminine" ways, and being too quick to say "well, you're a girl". Even if you don't agree with his claims about misdiagnoses, it's abundantly clear he is against gender essentialism.

1. https://resources.healthgrades.com/right-care/childrens-heal...

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