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Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

arstechnica.com

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Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does Iran have the right to fire drones into other countries? If America hadn't started bombing Iran in the first place this wouldn't have happened anyway. Things would have been peaceful and oil prices would have been fine.

And if the US/Israel didn't strike Iran, Iran would have ICBMs with nuclear warheads, which Iran could use for peace. Did you forget the purpose of the war?

The "reason" for this war was created by Trump in 2017 when the US left the agreement with Iran, while US intelligence agencies all testified to congress Iran was following the agreement and was not working towards a bomb. Then US imposed sanctions and Iran eventually started enrichment again.

Such a dumb lie.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the US doctrine, which is also fine-tailored to buying very expensive systems from certain corporations that have few to none competitors and feel no real pressure to innovate. "Arguably, the current Iran conflict is a proxy war against the PRoC." That is stretching it. The vast majority of weapons that Iran deployed were of their own build, and China sends nowhere near as much equipment to Iran as, say,…

You obviously don't understand US doctrine, since earlier you were complaining how the US hasn't adapted its arsenal regarding drones in just four years. Iran would not be able to pursue nuclear weapons nor missiles without China's assistance. The precursors of the missile fuel, the precursors of yellowcake processing, the chips and hardware of Iranian drones, all come from China with its assistance and blessing. Chi…

" that the US can always escalate the conflict and pursue a ground war. "

You seem to be stuck on repeat with "don't understand, don't understand, don't understand". Yet it seems to me that it is you who got sucked into some bizarro understanding of war being fundamentally an annihilation contest between the two parties involved. This very shallow understanding is now somewhat widespread in the blogosphere and pushed by, again, shallow types like Stephen Miller. Claims like "total destruction and capitulation was the default strategy of war for millenia" are just not true. It happened sometimes, but quite often also not, because warring parties always have some limits to their effort, be it ideological, economic or political limits. And this was no less true in Antiquity than today.

Outside the bizarro "total destruction" corner, war between organized states has been understood primarily as a continuation of politics, with the goal to make your enemy do something that they don't want to. Even the Mongols you mentioned usually gave a besieged city an option to surrender, because their primary goal wasn't simply to kill, but to conquer and rule.

Yes, there are exceptions (Carthago delenda est), but these exceptions aren't the historical rule.

Let us look at the situation in Iran now.

The US seems to want something from Iran. It is not very clear what, but probably free movement of ships through Hormuz, nuclear disarmament and maybe even regime change.

It also does NOT want to genocide the Persians out of existence. While doable, it would carry a heavy reputational penalty and cause significant friction back at home. Not even Trump wants to add tens of millions of civilian lives to his conscience, hence WMDs are out of question.

A ground invasion is thinkable, but I am much less persuaded about its efficiency than you are. As you yourself say, this has a risk of turning into a forever war and the US isn't equipped, mentally nor doctrinally, to fight forever wars.

Which means that you likely won't get what you want from the current Iranian leadership by the sort of military means you can feasibly use against them, and that is not a victory.

Please give me a plausible scenario in which the current US is capable of winning a ground war against Iran in the presence of all the current political limitations, which are quite fundamental. You can't.

Ultimately it does not matter if you can't win because you cannot muster the political will to engage in a costly war, or if you can't win because you run out of Tomahawks (both are correlated, btw). It is still an inability to win, which is obviously detrimental to the US imperial standing.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#63
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You present two issues: 1) the US is slow to adapt to drone warfare and 2) the US is losing to Iran. For 1), the US isn't in a hurry because there's no actual threat. The lack of drone warfare capabilities only impacts US action overseas and of the little bipartisan consensus left, one thing is clear: no new wars (Trump's Iran war is seen as betrayal from his own party but it's hard to oppose Dear Leader). For 2), it…

1) actual threats tend to mature in weeks, so this is a good recipe to get caught with pants down. 2) I concur, there seem to be no actual goals there. There is a Croatian saying that "form whomever who doesn't know where he wants to sail, no wind is useful". This fits.

1) Threats from who? Canada? Mexico? For the past ~150 years, the US has really only had overseas conflicts with few threats to domestic territory. The best argument you could make it the Cuba Missile Crisis, I suppose? If your immediate plan is to stop fighting in far away places, then drones aren't really a worry.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gap between weeks and years is big, though. Even in peacetime conditions, this process could be sped up if necessary. Indeed it might not make any sense at all to think in years and decades when it comes to such a quick-evolving industry. Whatever drone the DoD sets in stone now, will likely be obsolete by 2030. The Ukrainian drone industry isn't particularly expensive, BTW, and mostly grew up from private sector…

My impression from reading your comment is that you do not understand US doctrine. The US focuses on blitzkrieg, air supremacy, and precision strikes. Its doctrine is totally opposite of what is happening in the Ukraine/Russia conflict, which is a protracted WWI-era trench warfare conflict with minimal airpower by either side. The US is not optimized to fight such a war. Neither do you understand that the US has opti…

> The US has fought multiple proxy wars against the PRoC

That is beyond absurd claim. But, if it was true, then the USA is loosing even more badly. This war is helping exactly two countries - Russia and China.

> The US (and Russia) could always win their current conflicts with ICBMs, but choose not to.

This is copium and in both cases. If Russia could win that conflict, if it could take over, it would do it. If USA could win, they would do it. Heck, if USA was able to walk away from the conflict, at this point it would. It just so happen that Israel does not want to allow it and Iran thinks they are getting into better position with each passing week.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#65
post #13

Don't those Shaheds run on nVidia Jetson? Jensen cashing in again. Funny that most of the hardware in those drones is designed in the US. Stop hitting yourself.

Local wood frames, carbon from Japan, hardware designed in the USA, produced in China with Nvidia soft. It's kind of funny if it wasn't so wasteful on global resources.

The ghost of Milton Friedman is preparing his "pencil" speech as we speak!

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#66

An Apache only costs ,$25M? I thought it was a lot more.

"In 1986, the incremental or flyaway cost for the AH-64A was $7M and the average unit cost was approximately $13.9M based on total costs." [1]

"A new AH-64E has a base flyaway cost of $35 million to $50 million, but international packages often exceed $100 million." [2]

So probably slightly older models.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache

[2] - https://www.wionews.com/photos/apache-helicopter-cost-vs-pow...

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or maybe Iran decided to start building nuclear weapons? Is that a good excuse to turn schoolgirls into minced meat? Also, let's not pretend this started in a vacuum. The US has been interfering in Iran for many decades. > This entire conflict was fully avoidable if Iran never pursued nuclear weapons. > Why can't Iran just be a normal country, and not pursue nuclear weapons? If anything, history shows that every co…

Iran would largely be left to itself if it did not pursue hostile foreign policy against countries in the region. Is Iran in a better position after firing missiles at Azerbaijan, Oman, and Turkey? All three of these countries were neutral or friendly towards Iran, until Iran fired missiles at each unprompted. Its current situation is largely self-inflicted, and a result of poor foreign policy choices. > If anything,…

>Iran would largely be left to itself if it did not pursue hostile foreign policy against countries in the region.

Nice to show how ignorant of history you are.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#68
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) actual threats tend to mature in weeks, so this is a good recipe to get caught with pants down. 2) I concur, there seem to be no actual goals there. There is a Croatian saying that "form whomever who doesn't know where he wants to sail, no wind is useful". This fits.

1) Threats from who? Canada? Mexico? For the past ~150 years, the US has really only had overseas conflicts with few threats to domestic territory. The best argument you could make it the Cuba Missile Crisis, I suppose? If your immediate plan is to stop fighting in far away places, then drones aren't really a worry.

Threats to your allies, for example.

"If your immediate plan is to stop fighting in far away places, then drones aren't really a worry."

Yes, you can dismantle the entire coalition your presidents put together for 70+ years, but at some cost. The US economy is heavily intertwined with the rest of the world, and it probably cannot decouple from China AND forty democratic countries that used to be US allies at the same time.

Might be cheaper just to respect the current entanglements, at least in the long run.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, procurement times on new equipment is on the order of several years to nearly a decade. There's not enough time to produce nor acquire this hardware. This has not seemed to be a problem for the countries using them; what makes the US so uniquely inefficient?

Unlike Iran and Ukraine, the US military weapons are not manufactured in someone's garage or basement.

That should only make the US able to churn a lot more drones than a couple people working out of a basement. Assembly lines can work wonders.

Re: Cheap Iranian drone downed $25M US Army helicopter–maybe by chance

#70

So, the US relearns all the lessons of the Russo-Ukrainian war the hard way? Choppers proved very vulnerable already in 2022. History often repeats itself. In a similar way, Great Powers like France refused to study the lessons of the Russo-Japanese war of 1904-5 because it was something that happened in barbarian lands far away from glorious Europe, so it was obviously irrelevant to them, right? And then the shock o…

The French 75 was the best mobile gun in Europe. They entered the war expecting to be mobile and were the first to use poison gas. Compared to the Imperial Russian Navy? I don’t see it. The most dramatic lesson was that Japan prefers surprise attacks.
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