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Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

reuters.com

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Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#341

Post by andix »

jen20 wrote: post #332
andix wrote: post #253

It's totally fine that Apple doesn't release this feature for EU customers. If they think they can still sell enough phones it's also fine I guess. What's not fine, is to blame the EU for the missing feature. It's damaging their brand and damaging their reputation. Just think about if Porsche would make a press release and calling the US tariffs "un-American". Wouldn't be perceived well either.

> Just think about if Porsche would make a press release and calling the US tariffs "un-American". Like this? https://www.thestreet.com/automotive/bmw-ceo-has-blunt-new-m...

I can't find the problematic statement. Off course the tariffs are a threat to the financial success of German car manufacturers, and they need to keep their investors updated.

The DMA is also threatening Apple's high profit margins. That's the whole point of the DMA.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#342

Post by apercu »

eykanal wrote: post #38
afavour wrote: post #2

Apple said "hey, can we not comply with the law", the EU said no, so it didn't launch. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I can see why Apple might want to request an 18 month exemption, there's clearly extra work required to comply with EU regulations. But on the other hand it also feels like a straightforward play for consumer sympathy: let them get used to using it every day for 18 months, then pressure the EU to…

Google eng mgr here. I've worked on a few projects related to compliance with various government policies. This isn't "assign a two-pizza team to it, will be done in a quarter"; these types of compliance efforts can mean completely redoing multiple core systems to handle privacy, wipeout, audit, reporting, per-location policies, etc etc. These efforts can involve hundreds to thousands of people for multiple years. Su…

Agreed, unless you specifically know how a regulator will interpret a broad requirement on a edge case it’s a lot of effort to even figure out what the plan is, much less implement it.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#343

Post by bambax »

eykanal wrote: post #38
afavour wrote: post #2

Apple said "hey, can we not comply with the law", the EU said no, so it didn't launch. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I can see why Apple might want to request an 18 month exemption, there's clearly extra work required to comply with EU regulations. But on the other hand it also feels like a straightforward play for consumer sympathy: let them get used to using it every day for 18 months, then pressure the EU to…

Google eng mgr here. I've worked on a few projects related to compliance with various government policies. This isn't "assign a two-pizza team to it, will be done in a quarter"; these types of compliance efforts can mean completely redoing multiple core systems to handle privacy, wipeout, audit, reporting, per-location policies, etc etc. These efforts can involve hundreds to thousands of people for multiple years. Su…

So? It's also more effort to work everyday to earn a living than simply stealing what you need from your neighbors at gunpoint. But the law's the law.

As a European I'm conflicted because I think this particular set of privacy laws are overreaching bordering on stupid; but "exemptions" for one of the richest corporations on earth would be beyond absurd and infinitely worse.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#344

Post by GeekyBear »

speedgoose wrote: post #257

I find it interesting that Apple prefers to fall behind in Europe rather than opening their platform a tiny bit. It gives us European some opportunities. I have a side project at work that was heavily threatened by Siri’s new features. Now I feel more relaxed as Siri isn’t coming there anytime soon. But overall I doubt we will replace Apple.

> rather than opening their platform a tiny bit

Handing full access to the data on a user's device over to a company with the scruples of somebody like Facebook is a privacy nightmare, not "opening their platform a tiny bit".

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#345

Post by tmcb »

eykanal wrote: post #38
afavour wrote: post #2

Apple said "hey, can we not comply with the law", the EU said no, so it didn't launch. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I can see why Apple might want to request an 18 month exemption, there's clearly extra work required to comply with EU regulations. But on the other hand it also feels like a straightforward play for consumer sympathy: let them get used to using it every day for 18 months, then pressure the EU to…

Google eng mgr here. I've worked on a few projects related to compliance with various government policies. This isn't "assign a two-pizza team to it, will be done in a quarter"; these types of compliance efforts can mean completely redoing multiple core systems to handle privacy, wipeout, audit, reporting, per-location policies, etc etc. These efforts can involve hundreds to thousands of people for multiple years. Su…

> these types of compliance efforts can mean completely redoing multiple core systems to handle privacy, wipeout, audit, reporting, per-location policies, etc etc.

Maybe the phrasing is unfortunate, but if compliance to the law requires a “redoing”, launching in that market was never a priority in the first place. That’s a completely legitimate choice, but usually companies whining about regulations are making a financial decision rather than an ethical one.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#346

Post by thaumasiotes »

dylan604 wrote: post #200
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you knew the restrictions day one you’d be able to engineer the system to accommodate them This slows down deploying the system globally. Particularly if the target is moving, it may make sense to build lightly so one can pivot, and then build in the compliance stuff after you know you have a winning configuration. The EU has its laws. Apple has its strategy. The only thing I fault anyone on is the public bicker…

If Apple is so pro-privacy like they claim, then they'd look for the most strict international privacy laws and abide by them. Then they could feel safe in knowing they could release the product anywhere. The fact they want to make the product available under the "rules" of the least privacy protecting countries first says a lot to me

> If Apple is so pro-privacy like they claim, then they'd look for the most strict international privacy laws and abide by them. Then they could feel safe in knowing they could release the product anywhere.

Those are not equivalent statements. You're assuming that privacy is a one-dimensional quantity, so that anything that complies with "the strictest international privacy laws" automatically also complies with any other privacy laws. But this is not actually true. It can easily be the case that every national law allows some set of behavior (different sets for different legal systems), at the same time that the intersection of all those sets is empty.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#347

Post by simjnd »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #198
simjnd wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed but you ignore my second paragraph: they have developed (and 3rd-party audited) a way to handoff all the data (parts of your Personal Context, etc.) to their cloud servers in a privacy preserving way on-device. Why couldn't the same process could be used to handoff the data to a 3rd-party AI provider? (genuine why, if you have an understanding of the thing you have a strong opinion about I'd genuinely apprecia…

> Why couldn't the same process could be used to handoff the data to a 3rd-party AI provider? You have more safeguards if it’s running on your own metal. It’s reasonable to want to understand that better, perhaps with your own red team, before opening up customer data to actual potential hostiles.

Yeah I overestimated the amount of stripping / anonymization that was being done on device and didn't realize how much plumbing was required server-side too to have good enough privacy guarantees

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#348

Post by benjismith »

It makes perfect sense.

Apple's philosophy is that new APIs need some time to stabilize before they can be baked-in as a commitment to third-party developers.

So new APIs are almost always first-party only. Apple designs the API and becomes the first consumer of it. This experience of dogfooding their own APIs lets them iterate and learn without breaking compatibility with third-party developers consuming the API.

Only after an API has been hardened in this way does it become eligible for third-party consumption, where Apple can promise to document and support those APIs publicly.

It makes sense then, that if the DMA mandates equal access to new APIs for third-parties, then Apple will just disable new first-party APIs in the region until they've gotten their bake-in period elsewhere in the world. Sorry, EU!

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#349

Post by simjnd »

theshrike79 wrote: post #199
simjnd wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed but you ignore my second paragraph: they have developed (and 3rd-party audited) a way to handoff all the data (parts of your Personal Context, etc.) to their cloud servers in a privacy preserving way on-device. Why couldn't the same process could be used to handoff the data to a 3rd-party AI provider? (genuine why, if you have an understanding of the thing you have a strong opinion about I'd genuinely apprecia…

Apple PCC is using completely mad and paranoid amounts of security down to hardware and firmware level making sure nobody at any point of the supply chain can access the data. EU can’t and won’t enforce the same rigour for 3rd party cloud AI. Which is the problem for Apple. If said 3rd party service leaks private data, guess which company is going to be in the BIG HEADLINE and which one will hardly be mentioned in th…

Ah, I see. I overestimated the amount of stripping / anonymization that was being done on device. Thought the server-side could be quite generic. Thanks!

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#350

Post by butlike »

anon7000 wrote: post #131
McDyver wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes to show that privacy is not a priority. And it should be.

No, this is unrelated from privacy. The issue is that the EU won’t allow the new Siri because Apple isn’t willing to open up the system enough for 3rd party AI agents to get the same functionality.

Because Siri is the brand and other competitors will dilute the brand with their inferior products, is the line of reasoning, I'm sure. I'm unclear on why apple is branding the AI launcher or whatever if it's just going to be a wrapper for a third party product, however.
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