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Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

reuters.com

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Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#261

Post by rsynnott »

gmueckl wrote: post #35
afavour wrote: post #2

Apple said "hey, can we not comply with the law", the EU said no, so it didn't launch. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I can see why Apple might want to request an 18 month exemption, there's clearly extra work required to comply with EU regulations. But on the other hand it also feels like a straightforward play for consumer sympathy: let them get used to using it every day for 18 months, then pressure the EU to…

Throwing infinite money at engineering problems doesn't move deadlines arbitrarily. But Apple's position here is actually really wild: Apple claims to protect user privacy all the time. But they can't offer a product in a major jurisdiction that has actually meaningful privacy laws? Didn't they consider that while designing the product? This is quite the contradiction.

The issue here isn't EU privacy laws (which Apple has been historically quite good at complying with, by big tech standards); it's EU _competition_ laws.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#262

Post by skeledrew »

eykanal wrote: post #38
afavour wrote: post #2

Apple said "hey, can we not comply with the law", the EU said no, so it didn't launch. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I can see why Apple might want to request an 18 month exemption, there's clearly extra work required to comply with EU regulations. But on the other hand it also feels like a straightforward play for consumer sympathy: let them get used to using it every day for 18 months, then pressure the EU to…

Google eng mgr here. I've worked on a few projects related to compliance with various government policies. This isn't "assign a two-pizza team to it, will be done in a quarter"; these types of compliance efforts can mean completely redoing multiple core systems to handle privacy, wipeout, audit, reporting, per-location policies, etc etc. These efforts can involve hundreds to thousands of people for multiple years. Su…

There wouldn't need to be a redo if the products had been built with compliance in mind. This law isn't something new; it's been around for years now. Not taking it into account from the beginning with the intention of operating in the jurisdiction means there's definitely intention to skirt. Particularly given the previous issues in the same department.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#263

Post by miohtama »

eykanal wrote: post #38
afavour wrote: post #2

Apple said "hey, can we not comply with the law", the EU said no, so it didn't launch. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I can see why Apple might want to request an 18 month exemption, there's clearly extra work required to comply with EU regulations. But on the other hand it also feels like a straightforward play for consumer sympathy: let them get used to using it every day for 18 months, then pressure the EU to…

Google eng mgr here. I've worked on a few projects related to compliance with various government policies. This isn't "assign a two-pizza team to it, will be done in a quarter"; these types of compliance efforts can mean completely redoing multiple core systems to handle privacy, wipeout, audit, reporting, per-location policies, etc etc. These efforts can involve hundreds to thousands of people for multiple years. Su…

Also it does not matter what you do in the end. If you are Big Tech the EU will sue regardless and always finds an excuse.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#264

Post by geodel »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #16
graphime wrote: post #3

Good. EU has the right to privacy. Apple also has the right to not conduct business in EU. If EU doesn’t like it, they can build their own sovereign software.

If they can comply with China’s unreasonable demands, they can comply with the completely reasonable EU demands. They already claim to care about your freedom and privacy. Now they can prove it.

First they are not complying in China. Second it is sheer arrogance if not outright racist crap that China's demands are unreasonable but EU's reasonable.

Seriously EU folks need to come to down to earth sometime.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#265

Post by ornornor »

jonhohle wrote: post #224
ornornor wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay? I don’t see the problem, these requirements are known from the beginning so if complying wasn’t planned and requires re-architecturing the software to make it happens that’s on the engineering org not on the EU regulator. Unless I’m missing something?

These are relatively recent and may have come into force after development began, definitely after Siri development an initial integration into personal data. I suppose if you think these rules are reasonable, you’d be happy to not have this functionality. The rest of the world will be happy to not allow third parties access to our data. As a small developer, the cost to support something like this would be so overwh…

I’m happy to not have it if it’s not compliant, yes.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#266

Post by microtonal »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #219
ornornor wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay? I don’t see the problem, these requirements are known from the beginning so if complying wasn’t planned and requires re-architecturing the software to make it happens that’s on the engineering org not on the EU regulator. Unless I’m missing something?

The point is complying with the DMA from the outset could mean having to launch a year later everywhere. Skipping the EU makes sense in a fast-moving market (if you’re designated as a gatekeeper).

They have already launched two years late. Remember when we all had to buy an iPhone 16 to get Apple Intelligence?

Besides that, Google has shipped many (not all) similar features to Pixels in the EU and have been for years.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#267

Post by seanmcdirmid »

geodel wrote: post #264
spiderfarmer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can comply with China’s unreasonable demands, they can comply with the completely reasonable EU demands. They already claim to care about your freedom and privacy. Now they can prove it.

First they are not complying in China. Second it is sheer arrogance if not outright racist crap that China's demands are unreasonable but EU's reasonable. Seriously EU folks need to come to down to earth sometime.

I would venture that Apple is going to go with something fairly different in China with Chinese partners. This is different from 3rd party access because they aren't opening up their phones, it will just be a fixed 2nd party solution (like they do with Google, except Google -> Alibaba, Google Cloud -> Shanghai Water corporation or something like that).

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#268

Post by MBCook »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #203
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you make a list of tentative companies that would integrate their stuff to the OS like Siri it’s very likely all those are major US companies Mistral. I’d bet my bottom dollar that the French are the reason the EU is holding firm on its position.

Honestly, it's probably more that Apple have been arguing about basically every single thing they are being made to do under DMA, amd the respective Directorate has basically no patience left for them at this point. Never underestimate the power of a really, really, really irritated counterparty.

In other things Apple has absolutely been a complete jackass and deserves a very large amount of the smack down they’ve been getting. I’m sure that’s a part of this.

However they are also a 100,000 pound gorilla. If you fight with Apple over $ISSUE, even if they’re right in that case, you get headlines and possibly PR points. Lots of people here are quite happy to be mad at Apple. And other companies take notice that you’re serious.

If you argue with a tiny company from Spain, most of the world doesn’t care and you get no headlines.

Apple is complying with EU law by not releasing a feature that is not compliant with EU law. And the EU appears to be trying to make hay over that fact.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#269

Post by bigyabai »

theshrike79 wrote: post #199
simjnd wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed but you ignore my second paragraph: they have developed (and 3rd-party audited) a way to handoff all the data (parts of your Personal Context, etc.) to their cloud servers in a privacy preserving way on-device. Why couldn't the same process could be used to handoff the data to a 3rd-party AI provider? (genuine why, if you have an understanding of the thing you have a strong opinion about I'd genuinely apprecia…

Apple PCC is using completely mad and paranoid amounts of security down to hardware and firmware level making sure nobody at any point of the supply chain can access the data. EU can’t and won’t enforce the same rigour for 3rd party cloud AI. Which is the problem for Apple. If said 3rd party service leaks private data, guess which company is going to be in the BIG HEADLINE and which one will hardly be mentioned in th…

> EU can’t and won’t enforce the same rigour for 3rd party cloud AI. Which is the problem for Apple.

Why should they? If the user decides to trust a third party, Apple shouldn't retain veto power for the customer's choice.

This is how macOS treats apps like OpenClaw. It can absolutely work for iOS too.

Re: Apple decided not to roll out Siri in EU after denied request for exemption

#270

Post by inetknght »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #187
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of the world’s wealthiest companies can spare the resources needed to comply with the regulations of one of the world’s largest markets At what cost? This is Apple’s second bite at AI. Giannandrea fucked up the first time. I’m honestly with Cupertino on not over complicating it the second time around. If they found the right mix of features and architecture, great, then work to port it to high-bar jurisdictions…

> At what cost? This is Apple’s second bite at AI. Giannandrea fucked up the first time. I’m honestly with Cupertino on not over complicating it the second time around. If they found the right mix of features and architecture, great, then work to port it to high-bar jurisdictions. I totally agree with you in principle here, but Apple have a pretty large vested interest in not supporting interoperability here (and in…

> Apple have a pretty large vested interest in not supporting interoperability here

Yeah that needs to stop. This is kinda why the DMA was created in the first place...

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