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Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

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Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#71

Post by pandaman »

commandar wrote: post #42
ekm2 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right,the american economy is in danger of tanking if the country does not hire more janitors.Science and Engineering phds can look after themselves elsewhere,Canada maybe?

California's -- in particular -- argicultural economy is highly reliant on unskilled, migrant workers. Producing food for people to eat is somewhat important.

Wisconsin produces half as much food as California[1] with 50 times fewer illegal immigrants[2]. I won't vouch for that site's data but having lived in both states I don't see any reason to distrust these particular numbers.

[1]http://www.statemaster.com/graph/ind_foo_man_tot_val_of_shi-... [2]http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_est_num_of_ill_imm-peop...

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#72

Post by enraged_camel »

I think what is more important is that since this administration took over, rejection rates for skilled visa applications have skyrocketed.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/obama-warned-over-h1b-visa...

As someone who has had to respond to two RFEs so far - once for my initial H1B application and once for my green card application, I get the feeling that I am not wanted in this country. I have seriously contemplated moving back overseas more than once.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#73

Post by commandar »

marknutter wrote: post #66
commandar wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes away the Republicans' opportunity to claim they already addressed immigration reform and that any further action is the President "going too far." The Republicans are between a rock and a hard place politically on immigration. Latinos are the fastest-growing demographic in the country, and Republican hostility toward immigration reform is starting to cost them in elections. e.g., Obama pummeled Romney among…

Thanks for the insight, I suppose it does sound like he made the right choice for his party. Interesting.

It really makes sense from a negotiation standpoint. It's generally expected that immigration reform will be a banner issue for Obama this term, and this bill was likely an attempt by the Republicans to get out ahead of the issue before more sweeping legislation is introduced.

By refusing to cooperate on this bill, it signals that the White House and the Senate are unwilling to let the Republicans pick and choose on reform, meaning that the issue is going to be addressed in the more comprehensive manner that the Democrats feel is necessary.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#74

Post by commandar »

pandaman wrote: post #71
commandar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's -- in particular -- argicultural economy is highly reliant on unskilled, migrant workers. Producing food for people to eat is somewhat important.

Wisconsin produces half as much food as California[1] with 50 times fewer illegal immigrants[2]. I won't vouch for that site's data but having lived in both states I don't see any reason to distrust these particular numbers. [1] http://www.statemaster.com/graph/ind_foo_man_tot_val_of_shi-... [2] http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_est_num_of_ill_imm-peop...

This is a complete WAG, but if I were to take a stab in the dark, I suspect the makeup of Wisconsin's agriculture industry is rather different than California's.

It looks like Wisconsin's industry is geared largely toward livestock and dairy, with fruit and vegetable crops largely composed of things like cranberries, corn, and potatoes:

http://www.aae.wisc.edu/pubs/status/docs/status2012.pdf

California, on the other hand, apparently produces "nearly half of US-grown fruits, nuts and vegetables."

http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/statistics/

It's my understanding that migrant workers in CA are largely employed picking fruits, vegetables, etc.

Again, I'm by no means speaking authoritatively here, but there's certainly more to this than simply comparing the dollar-value of each state's combined agricultural output.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#75

Post by JVIDEL »

mynameishere wrote: post #26
nhashem wrote: post #7

From the administration's response: "As a part of immigration reform, the Administration strongly supports legislation to attract and retain foreign students who graduate with advanced STEM degrees, to establish a start-up visa for foreign-born entrepreneurs to start businesses and create jobs, and to reform the employment-based immigration system to better meet the needs of the U.S. economy. However, the Administrat…

without "cannibalizing" the diversity visas. Well, the diversity visas were the most brutal possible attack on sanity ever passed by a legislature. "Oh, you came from XYZ wretched backwater, here's your VISA...on the basis of your wretchedness." Sad, sad, sad, to live in such dismal times.

Actually a lot of poor countries don't qualify because there are already too many of their citizens living in the US, legally or illegally.

That's the "diversity" part, and the list includes many rich countries too.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#76

Post by Daniel_Newby »

wtvanhest wrote: post #31
ajays wrote: post #14

On the other hand: does the glut of tech workers drive down wages? If you strictly look at it from a supply/demand angle, one could argue that if these companies wanted more techies, they could just pay more. Being able to increase supply at will (i.e. import techies) will naturally drive down prices (i.e. wages). The same argument is made about illegal immigration: these immigrants fill low-end jobs that don't pay w…

I can't imagine why US engineers would support a bill like this from a benefit analysis perspective. It should be obvious that if you add engineers, prices will go down. I can completely understand supporting it for moral reasons however.

> It should be obvious that if you add engineers, prices will go down.

STEM is not a zero sum game. Adding personnel does not simply cut the pie into more pieces, it grows the pie. It's OK to get fewer dollars if those dollars can buy a self-driving car or a cure for Alzheimer's disease.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#77

Post by Evbn »

seldo wrote: post #62
sthatipamala wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you tell me why you claim immigration is fundamentally good? Interested in hearing more.

Fundamentally, immigration is a market response. Demand for labor inside of a country exceeds supply -- or, more accurately, the demand for labor in the receiving country exceeds the demand in the sending country. This trade in labor is good for all the same reasons that any other trade is good: the commodity (labor) goes for the best price to the supplier to those who will most benefit from it, as indicated by their…

If immigrants benefit from social insurance, the whole equation falls apart. But you can't allow immigration and then refuse social services, so.....

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#78

Post by Daniel_Newby »

temphn wrote: post #13

What is the argument for 55000 random visas at a time when the US economy is doing very poorly? Is this a game? US citizenship clearly has market value. Billions of dollars could be raised by turning these into entrepreneur visas or charging per visa (it's not like the US doesn't already do this, but the price is way too low). If we're taxing current citizens, and we have 50% exit taxes, why not entry taxes? When dem…

The US economy is doing poorly because of energy policy, not population size.

> Billions of dollars could be raised by turning these into entrepreneur visas or charging per visa ...

Billions of dollars would be like pissing on a supernova. Putting out the fiscal fire will take trillions of dollars in economic reform and growth, and immigrants have historically been a big part of American boom times.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#79

Post by temphn »

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #78
temphn wrote: post #13

What is the argument for 55000 random visas at a time when the US economy is doing very poorly? Is this a game? US citizenship clearly has market value. Billions of dollars could be raised by turning these into entrepreneur visas or charging per visa (it's not like the US doesn't already do this, but the price is way too low). If we're taxing current citizens, and we have 50% exit taxes, why not entry taxes? When dem…

The US economy is doing poorly because of energy policy, not population size. > Billions of dollars could be raised by turning these into entrepreneur visas or charging per visa ... Billions of dollars would be like pissing on a supernova. Putting out the fiscal fire will take trillions of dollars in economic reform and growth, and immigrants have historically been a big part of American boom times.

Oh, I agree with you that billions are nothing relative to what this government is spending. Bernanke prints $85 billion every month. Even charging 1 million dollars for each of these 50000 visas would raise only $50 billion.

That said, the guys who could afford to pay that would better than these "lottery" admits. Young STEM grads would also be good. Canada and Singapore have far more rational immigration policies, where there is consideration given to whether a given immigrant will be a net tax-payer or tax-recipient; young STEM grads and entrepreneurs with money are favored categories -- and they do not give away coveted visas at random.

People act as if the US has infinite money to just give away, that we can be never-endingly generous with no consequences, that the quality of person we take in has no impact. Then they turn around and post on Hacker News about how you need to watch your burn rate and only hire the best for your startup.

Re: Obama opposes House passage of H.R. 6429

#80

Post by Evbn »

eaurouge wrote: post #57
wmil wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only requirement for a diversity visa is a high school equivalent. Considering how poor the job market is for HS only graduates, limiting visas to people with marketable skills makes a lot of sense.

Marketability should not be the only metric for valuing skills. How do you select the immigrant whose child will be the next Michael Phelps, or the next Einstein, or the next Pele?

You select marketable immigrants with the resources to invest in education and training, like the people you named's parents.
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