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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#401

Post by bluebarbet »

tpholland wrote: post #389
philipallstar wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you list the statistics that demonstrate the exceptionally diverse population?

Absolutely! Although I would have thought it was common knowledge. 62% of the Swiss population have German as their main language, 22.7% French, 8% Italian, and 0.5% Romansch. This is an extraordinary level of diversity for a European country, and as other commentators have noted it isn't like there's a lingua franca: a large proportion of Swiss do not speak the languages used by other groups fluently--for example, 8…

Interesting statistics and I for one will back up your analysis. But the Alpine woolly mammoth in the room is that, in 21st-century Europe, "cultural and religious diversity" does not, for most people, imply a heterogeneity of Germanophones and Francophones, or Protestants and Catholics. It means something else.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#402

Post by throwaway85825 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #383
throwaway85825 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's terribly fascinating for linguists it's generally understood that the languages and cultures within Switzerland are more related and generally homogeneous than when compared with for example asiatic language and culture.

> the languages and cultures within Switzerland are more related and generally homogeneous than when compared with for example asiatic language and culture Switzerland speaks languages from the Italic and Germanic clades of PIE [1]. That makes them about as dissimilar as Indo-Iranian and Slavic languages are from each of them. Helvetia is a confederacy specifically because Switzerland has never been particularly homo…

Due to geography Swiss city states were able to maintain their independence and resist incorporation into larger principalities and subsequent empires. The Swiss militia that defended this was the basis for the American 2nd ammendment. Arguably it was the Swiss greater class homogeneity that explains their success.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#403

Post by JumpCrisscross »

throwaway85825 wrote: post #402
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the languages and cultures within Switzerland are more related and generally homogeneous than when compared with for example asiatic language and culture Switzerland speaks languages from the Italic and Germanic clades of PIE [1]. That makes them about as dissimilar as Indo-Iranian and Slavic languages are from each of them. Helvetia is a confederacy specifically because Switzerland has never been particularly homo…

Due to geography Swiss city states were able to maintain their independence and resist incorporation into larger principalities and subsequent empires. The Swiss militia that defended this was the basis for the American 2nd ammendment. Arguably it was the Swiss greater class homogeneity that explains their success.

> Due to geography Swiss city states were able to maintain their independence and resist incorporation into larger principalities and subsequent empires

Swiss territory has been part of, variously, the Roman Empire, various Germanic kingdoms, the Carolingian Empire, the HRE and Napoleonic France. Swiss independence was really only enshrined at the Congress of Vienna, I believe at the courtesy of Metternich. Of Austria-Hungary.

> Swiss militia that defended this was the basis for the American 2nd ammendment

Source?

> the Swiss greater class homogeneity

Yes, Switzerland was universally poor and started becoming wealthy with less inequality than other nations in the 1920s. (Note that in the 1910s like 15% of Switzerland was foreign born.)

The homogeneity pitch just doesn’t work for Switzerland.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#404

Post by philipallstar »

tpholland wrote: post #373
philipallstar wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not - not everything is about race. That's a pretty basic lesson that World War 2 taught us, that you should have learned.

What did you mean when you said homogenous, given the reality of Switzerland, its history, its civil structure, its languages, and its culture?

I don't know what the exact word is - I wouldn't quite say "culture", as there are clearly different cultural backgrounds at work, but just as with Canada mixing French and Anglo traditions, there is a generally homogenous Western European metaculture at work, premised on the Enlightenment, classical liberalism, the rule of law (and equality of opportunity under the law), freedom of religion, the importance of education and hard work, private property, and personal responsibility.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#405

Post by crazygringo »

rayiner wrote: post #112
arjie wrote: post #31

This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up…

Calling it a population cap for something that seems to be about stricter border controls is a wild marketing choice.

It's actually kind of genius.

It implicitly reframes a debate about immigration, to a debate about ecology/sustainability.

Like I'm not defending it or saying it's honest. But as a marketing jiujitsu move, it's actually impressively creative.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#406

Post by tpholland »

bluebarbet wrote: post #328
tpholland wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Switzerland emphatically does not have a homogenous population. It has an exceptionally diverse population, linguistically, religiously and culturally. And yet as you say it has an exceptional record when it comes to cohesion and social trust. Living the dream!

The social cohesion of Switzerland is mainly within the linguistic communities. Many Francophone Swiss hardly speak a word of German (just as their Belgian counterparts don't speak Dutch). And a large proportion of Switzerland's "diverse" immigrants are in fact from just across the country's borders (particularly Germans). "Diversity" is not what explains Switzerland's wealth.

Absolutely agree, and of course I would never argue that "diversity" explains Switzerland's wealth. It occupied a pretty unique and interesting place during the Reformation, and maybe there is something there. But the idea that either diversity or homogeneity can explain economic performance is obviously not bourne out by any serious examples. I was thinking about Belgium (and also thinking about Harry Lime) whilst typing away--it seems a bit of a counterexample to Switzerland where the same linguistic and cultural diversity within a country can lead to very different outcomes and senses. Nobody would ever write "Il n'y a pas de Suisse" as Destrée wrote "Il n'y a pas de Belges"--long history vs short history and as always the Reformation upheavals explain it perhaps

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#407

Post by wizzwizz4 »

bluebarbet wrote: post #401
tpholland wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely! Although I would have thought it was common knowledge. 62% of the Swiss population have German as their main language, 22.7% French, 8% Italian, and 0.5% Romansch. This is an extraordinary level of diversity for a European country, and as other commentators have noted it isn't like there's a lingua franca: a large proportion of Swiss do not speak the languages used by other groups fluently--for example, 8…

Interesting statistics and I for one will back up your analysis. But the Alpine woolly mammoth in the room is that, in 21st-century Europe, "cultural and religious diversity" does not, for most people, imply a heterogeneity of Germanophones and Francophones, or Protestants and Catholics. It means something else.

Can you say the quiet part out loud, please? I'm having trouble hearing what "something else" is meant to convey.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#408

Post by xenonite »

jansport123 wrote: post #382
kuerbel wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also swiss here. So many people seem to think that this is about refugees. Wrong. It's about Europeans. Mostly Germans. They are educated and highly skilled and for some swiss, that's a problem. They blame them for not finding a job or an appartement. Just read the comments on inside paradeplatz, you can translate with any llm, on a post about the referendum. A subset of the swiss Middle class has decided that they d…

seems to be a common concern amongst the local population everywhere "X identity is hiring only X identity"

Yes, we have a really well recognized Spanish team lead here, yet he’s mostly hiring Spanish people (in Switzerland), oh yes and one Italian is the exception.

Also we had a German team lead hiring Germans, well surprise it is easier being with similar ones.

Diversity back in the day meant Physics, Electrical Engineering and Mechanical Engineering working together…

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#409

Post by mschuster91 »

ahartmetz wrote: post #224
stymaar wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France is mostly empty by Europe's population density standard though, so even though it was likely not the intent of GP, it kind of works in that context.

>France is mostly empty Which is so weird! France has large amounts of good farmland, some of the most modern (and unified, unlike Germany) government in Europe for a long time etc... no obvious reason to have just half the population density of Germany.

> no obvious reason to have just half the population density of Germany.

France was historically always focused on Paris, because that was where the Emperor was. If you were not a farmer, there was little reason to live anywhere but Paris or other large cities.

In contrast, Germany historically consisted of thousands of small fiefdoms that each held some sort of local importance and each held authority of some sort. The Kaiser was pretty far away and only mattered in practice when the Kaiserreich was involved in some sort of conflict.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#410

Post by like_any_other »

bapo wrote: post #146

Swiss here and able to vote. In fact, just posted my voting letter today, before taking a 1h bike ride through the biggest city in Switzerland, having lots of space and freedom biking around in our beautiful city. When taking the train to my parents house, I pass several farms and landly smaller cities. Alot of free space in between those, train mostly has spare seats, depending on rush hour timings. There usually ar…

Sounds like a lovely place. Why wouldn't you want to pass a law to keep it that way?
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